WOFT aircraft selection?

[Velocity173]

 

 

I agree with this. I LOVE flying helicopters but airplanes never really interested me that much, and still really dont. All these guys were begging for a C-12 transition when we were in the 60 course and I just never jumped on the boat. yeah the free ratings would be nice but other than that I really have no desire, at this point in my career to go fixed wing. I guess I'm one of the odd ones but I just never found planes appealing. Now I'll caveat that with fast movers. Flying an A-10 would be one of the coolest jobs in the world to me.

 

Yeah if the Army had fighters then we're talking a different story. I jump on that and I'm sure everyone would. A C-12 or even a UC-35 for that matter is no F-16 though. The flying experience is completely different. I had a Navy Flight Surgeon doing my physical when I was applying. He told me he had over 100 hrs backseat in F-18s but he enjoyed flying TH-57s more.

 

The only reason I was thinking switching to fixed wing when I was in was for a better lifestyle. When you do enough field exercises living in a tent and all the BS of what big Army brings, you want to see how the other half lives. I have a friend in UC-35s who travels the world flying VIP and is put up in pretty good living conditions. Still, I think one mission would get old. I've flown VIPs in 60s. I've also flown air assaults, C2, casevac, sling loads, mountain ops, gunnery, FEMA natural disaster etc. Far more stuff to do in helicopters.

 

If you want free fixed wing ratings just use your post 9-11 GI Bill. I paid out of pocket for PPL but I used AVOTEC for IFR and getting ready to use GI Bill for Multi/ Com. Also when it comes to getting hired in a dual position it takes more than just a rating. Outside of going Customs it'll take a lot of hours in both airframes. My company (EMS) flys King Airs as well as helos. They're not going to put me in a King Air spot simply because I went and got my multi rating. They want experience. Same applies to those who went fixedwing early on in their career. My company doesn't advertise a requirement of 2,000 TT. It's 2,000 TT in helos. Even then that's a minimum that they rarely hire. It's all about saving money on insurance and a 3,000 hr guy in helicopters is far cheaper to insure than a 2,000 hr one.

[electron_si]

Yeah if the Army had fighters then we're talking a different story. I jump on that and I'm sure everyone would. A C-12 or even a UC-35 for that matter is no F-16 though. The flying experience is completely different. I had a Navy Flight Surgeon doing my physical when I was applying. He told me he had over 100 hrs backseat in F-18s but he enjoyed flying TH-57s more.

 

The only reason I was thinking switching fixedwing when I was in was for a better lifestyle. When you do enough field exercises living in a tent and all the BS of what big Army brings, you want to see how the other half lives. I have a friend in UC-35s who travels the world flying VIP and is put up in pretty good living conditions. Still, I think one mission would get old. I've flown VIPs in 60s. I've also flown air assaults, C2, casevac, sling loads, mountain ops, gunnery, FEMA natural disaster etc. Far more stuff to do in helicopters.

 

If you want free fixedwing ratings just use your post 9-11 GI Bill. I paid out of pocket for PPL but I used AVOTEC for IFR and getting ready to use GI Bill for Multi/ Com. Also when it comes to getting hired in a dual position it takes more than just a rating. Outside of going Customs it'll take a lot of hours in both airframes. My company (EMS) flys King Airs as well as helos. They're not going to put me in a King Air spot simply because I went and got my multi rating. They want experience. Same applies to those who went fixedwing early on in their career. My company doesn't advertise a requirement of 2,000 TT. It's 2,000 TT in helos. Even then that's a minimum that they rarely hire. It's all about saving money on insurance and a 3,000 hr guy in helicopters is far cheaper to insure than a 2,000 hr one.

 

It seems to me that the EMS world is an extremely competitive section regardless of the airframe. They are all looking for very specific experience. I got my A&P through the military and had 5 years experience working on Turbine rotary wing. I held 2 army MOS's 1 for sheetmetal the other for crewchief and worked full time as a UH-60 maintainer for the KSNG. I was also in the UH-60 IERW course when I applied for several positions as a mechanic with several different EMS companies.

 

I even had a contact at 1 company here, My buddy from my unit that was also in IERW, his dad was EMS pilot of the year working for Eagle Med. He HAND CARRIED my resume into the HR department and spoke with the maint. chief. I never even got a phone call. I've gotten way more turn down letters from EMS companies than I can count all for not having specialized experience.

 

Not sure what they are looking for other than factory training course but Turbine rotary is turbine rotary. I flew Bell 206's, OH-58's and UH-60's. Same parts and pieces, different names. I just could not believe that I never even scored a phone interview. I gave up on EMS and I doubt I will ever seek employment again. Unless another war kicks off 2,000 fligtht hours is out of reach for me, especially since I'm wanting to track MTP and they alone do not accrue many flight hours

[Velocity173]

 

 

It seems to me that the EMS world is an extremely competitive section regardless of the airframe. They are all looking for very specific experience. I got my A&P through the military and had 5 years experience working on Turbine rotary wing. I held 2 army MOS's 1 for sheetmetal the other for crewchief and worked full time as a UH-60 maintainer for the KSNG. I was also in the UH-60 IERW course when I applied for several positions as a mechanic with several different EMS companies.

 

I even had a contact at 1 company here, My buddy from my unit that was also in IERW, his dad was EMS pilot of the year working for Eagle Med. He HAND CARRIED my resume into the HR department and spoke with the maint. chief. I never even got a phone call. I've gotten way more turn down letters from EMS companies than I can count all for not having specialized experience.

 

Not sure what they are looking for other than factory training course but Turbine rotary is turbine rotary. I flew Bell 206's, OH-58's and UH-60's. Same parts and pieces, different names. I just could not believe that I never even scored a phone interview. I gave up on EMS and I doubt I will ever seek employment again. Unless another war kicks off 2,000 fligtht hours is out of reach for me, especially since I'm wanting to track MTP and they alone do not accrue many flight hours

 

Yeah EMS can be picky. That's why we have so many openings. They're looking for that perfect candidate. It's not really a job that you get because of who you know either. It's all about experience and insurance costs. With our historically bad accident rate, they have to be selective in who they hire. I got hired with almost 3,900 hrs and I'm the junior hour guy at my base! In my interview she said they look for two primary things. They want someone with a lot of single pilot time and someone with a lot of single engine turbine time, preferably in the aircraft they're hiring you to fly. I had neither one of those. She hired me because I was an 60 SP and Rucker IP which I suppose on ocassion i was single pilot. That and the fact I fly fixedwing single pilot helped.

 

Tracking MTP isn't the best choice for setting yourself up for life after the Army but we do what the Army needs. It's also not a death sentence as far as getting a civilian job either. I recently vouched for a guy (MTP) from my old unit in the Army. He got hired in an EC-135 IFR position. Once again, they would prefer single pilot IFR experience but he exceeded the minimum hiring requirements so they took him. Right now we're expanding big time so we have plenty of openings.

 

As far as selecting an aircraft in flight school, I would urge you all to pick something that has a mission you all would enjoy doing. Don't choose an aircraft because of status or in hopes of making money when you get out. We always said in flight school that we pick the aircraft that most closely reflects our personality. Just go with that...unless of course you get forced into an aircraft. Doesn't matter what airframe you pick though, if you get enough hours you will be marketable when you get out. That might take 20 yrs but whatever. Far worse things to do in life than flying helicopters in the Army.

[Jester2138]

Aren't there plenty of fixed wing airplanes in the Air Force, Marines, and Navy?

[Velocity173]

Aren't there plenty of fixed wing airplanes in the Air Force, Marines, and Navy?

Lol! At one point we used to have the most fixed wing out of any branch.

[stearmann4]

Not trying to woo anyone to the FW community, but admittedly it's difficult to look at where you want to be in 10-15 years and make decisions based on that. My recommendations are only coming from having been at this game long enough to have the lessons learned, 23 years AD, currently own 4 civilian airplanes, a flying business, (www.silverwingsflying.com)and, working part time flying a Huey and MD-500 for a civlian company that does logging and firefighting. www.nwhelicopters.com

 

Being dual (military) rated will not only add to your experience and employability in the civilian world, but also open more career options during your time in the military. I was given some advice when I was a junior E-4 some years ago, and it proved invaluable; "Don't ever, ever turn down a military school of any kind, even if it's something you don't really want to do.."

 

Take it for what it' worth, and good luck on the board in a couple of days.

 

Mike-

[av8rnik]

Mike, so how does it work if we taker an opportunity to do some FW flying in the Army and then transition back to RW? Do you go back to Rucker to re-integrate into your RW platform or go straight to your next unit and do the transition there?

[DC8488]

Not trying to woo anyone to the FW community, but admittedly it's difficult to look at where you want to be in 10-15 years and make decisions based on that. My recommendations are only coming from having been at this game long enough to have the lessons learned, 23 years AD, currently own 4 civilian airplanes, a flying business, (www.silverwingsflying.com)and, working part time flying a Huey and MD-500 for a civlian company that does logging and firefighting. www.nwhelicopters.com

 

Being dual (military) rated will not only add to your experience and employability in the civilian world, but also open more career options during your time in the military. I was given some advice when I was a junior E-4 some years ago, and it proved invaluable; "Don't ever, ever turn down a military school of any kind, even if it's something you don't really want to do.."

 

Take it for what it' worth, and good luck on the board in a couple of days.

 

Mike-

Mike, as usual, spot on advice. Thanks. Also, how in the world do you find time for the extracurricular activities!? Especially, considering your current unit.

[akscott60]

Last I heard the FW community does not let you go once you take your first flying orders with them.

[Velocity173]

Last I heard the FW community does not let you go once you take your first flying orders with them.

 

 

I'm sure they wouldn't want to. I know a guy who went to Bliss and flew C-12s. He was with them for about 3 yrs and decided to go back to 60s. He went to the IE course first and then back to his old unit in Germany. Probably rare bit it can still be done.

[Lindsey]

I've got a question since we're talking (sort of) about flight time. I'm a civilian helicopter CFI. How often or possible is it to instruct on the side once you've accomplished all your progression/PC duties at your unit? Obviously this depends on unit OPTEMPO and other duties in the unit, but with the war winding down, I wonder if this would be a possibility.

[Velocity173]

I've got a question since we're talking (sort of) about flight time. I'm a civilian helicopter CFI. How often or possible is it to instruct on the side once you've accomplished all your progression/PC duties at your unit? Obviously this depends on unit OPTEMPO and other duties in the unit, but with the war winding down, I wonder if this would be a possibility.

 

Easy on the weekends. Weekdays probably not going to happen. If your active duty your schedule doesn't really matter if it's wartime or peacetime. The only thing that changes are the amount of hours you fly at home station. Here's an example of what your schedule on a non flying day will be like:

 

0630-show for PT

0730-PT ends

0900-show for work (sit around and see who's giving today's class on hydraulics)

1000-go to grocery store and pick up junk food for the fridge fund.

1130-go to lunch

1300-return from lunch (more sitting around studying, planning next flight or next class on hydraulics)

1500-time devoted to any other additional duties such as fire marshal, NVG officer, public works officer, hearing conservation officer, EO officer, movement officer, supply officer etc, etc, etc.

1600-go help crew chiefs tie down/move aircraft

1700-wait for PL to dismiss you for the day

 

Now you're on your free time and can go out to the airport and instruct.

 

If you're lucky enough to fly a continuation flight or an actual mission your show time and schedule will revolve around that. Generally you have about a 2 hr prior show. Go out and fly for 2 hrs training or possibly be gone for the rest of the day on a mission. At any rate it would still be hard to work a civilian job around that. You're on the Army's time 24-7. Still possible to instruct but you'd need to be at a duty station near an airport that has helos and your student would have to be flexible to work around your work schedule.

 

Only CFIs that I knew that instructed outside of the Army were the ones at Rucker who instructed fixed wing at the local airport. There your schedule is cake. I worked 6-7 hr days until they made me a section leader and destroyed my perfect schedule. Anyway, if you're a regular "Joe IP" you would have plenty of time before a night watch (1730)and after work on a day watch (1230). Last time I was there (2009) we didn't do the weekend flights anymore but you might have the rare ocassion if your class is behind.

 

First, you gotta get your packet in Lindsey. Get on the ball!

 

Correction! You said after you were PC. You won't be the "Fridge Girl." Disregard the 1000 entry and replace with going to either S1 or flight ops to fix what ever new screw up they put in your records.

[stearmann4]

What alows me to have a busy extra curricular life is primarily that when I'm not deployed I have a very flexible work schedule, and when we do deploy, it's on for 60 days +/- at a time.

 

Also, both my company and the helicopter flying is largely seasonal from about April until the end of September. About once every 4 years I may miss a summer in it's entirety.

 

Lastly, the airport I fly out of is only minutes from my house and directly on my route to and from work. I'll usually schedule flights or lessons on my way home, or on weekends. I also have 2 pilots that work for me to in case I'm unavailable, and I'm married to the office manager so I don't miss much.

 

As for Lindsey's question, you can instruct as much as your military schedule will allow, as long as your commander has been informed prior, and there is some minor paperwork involved to be completely legal. In the past I've been contracted to fly some airshows in the Huey or Cobra for a museum and just took leave if it occured on a work day just to cover the Line of Duty requirements. That said, I instruct or fly for hire a little over 200 hours a year which in some years is more than I fly for the Army.

 

Mike-

[wm200]

What are the civilian job prospectives for a AH-64 pilot vs a UH-60 or CH-47?

[Lindsey]

 

 

Easy on the weekends. Weekdays probably not going to happen. If your active duty your schedule doesn't really matter if it's wartime or peacetime. The only thing that changes are the amount of hours you fly at home station. Here's an example of what your schedule on a non flying day will be like:

 

0630-show for PT

0730-PT ends

0900-show for work (sit around and see who's giving today's class on hydraulics)

1000-go to grocery store and pick up junk food for the fridge fund.

1130-go to lunch

1300-return from lunch (more sitting around studying, planning next flight or next class on hydraulics)

1500-time devoted to any other additional duties such as fire marshal, NVG officer, public works officer, hearing conservation officer, EO officer, movement officer, supply officer etc, etc, etc.

1600-go help crew chiefs tie down/move aircraft

1700-wait for PL to dismiss you for the day

 

Now you're on your free time and can go out to the airport and instruct.

 

If you're lucky enough to fly a continuation flight or an actual mission your show time and schedule will revolve around that. Generally you have about a 2 hr prior show. Go out and fly for 2 hrs training or possibly be gone for the rest of the day on a mission. At any rate it would still be hard to work a civilian job around that. You're on the Army's time 24-7. Still possible to instruct but you'd need to be at a duty station near an airport that has helos and your student would have to be flexible to work around your work schedule.

 

Only CFIs that I knew that instructed outside of the Army were the ones at Rucker who instructed fixed wing at the local airport. There your schedule is cake. I worked 6-7 hr days until they made me a section leader and destroyed my perfect schedule. Anyway, if you're a regular "Joe IP" you would have plenty of time before a night watch (1730)and after work on a day watch (1230). Last time I was there (2009) we didn't do the weekend flights anymore but you might have the rare ocassion if your class is behind.

 

First, you gotta get your packet in Lindsey. Got on the ball!

 

Correction! You said after you were PC. You won't be the "Fridge Girl." Disregard the 1000 entry and replace with going to either S1 or flight ops to fix what ever new screw up they put in your records.

 

Wow, Velocity, that was very insightful--thanks! I said after PC because that should be my priority upon arriving to a unit, rather than trying to rack up more R22 time on the weekends. Doing that at Rucker as an IP sounds like the way to go.

 

One run already completed today, considering another one tonight.

[Lindsey]

 

As for Lindsey's question, you can instructor as much as your military schedule will allow, as long as your commander has been informed prior, and there is some minor paperwork involved to be completely legal. In the past I've been contracted to fly some airshows in the Huey or Cobra for a museum and just took leave if it occured on a work day just to cover the Line of Duty requirements. That said, I instruct or fly for hire a little over 200 hours a year which in some years is more than I fly for the Army.

 

Mike-

 

What paperwork to be legal? I didn't realize you also worked for NW Helicopters, good company I hear.

 

By the way, I've been playing phone tag with Libby and he mentioned you recommended me as a CFI. Seems like a great guy. Thanks for putting in a good word. You ever gonna bring the Stearman up to PWT? I'm there Tues-Fri.

[Lindsey]

What are the civilian job prospectives for a AH-64 pilot vs a UH-60 or CH-47?

 

Flight time is *generally* going to be the most important discriminator, but if all else is equal, being a CH-47 pilot could get you talking to Columbia Helicopters out of Aurora, OR, being a UH-60 pilot could get you talking to CBP, Firehawk, etc (d10 just got another job he might want to mention), and I'm not sure how being an Apache pilot will *directly* relate to a civvie job for obvious reasons. Unless you work for Boeing as a test pilot or something along those lines. A Kiowa is *basically* a Bell 206, which is an incredibly popular civilian helicopter.

[stearmann4]

^{Nobody really cares what you fly, what matters is how much time you actually have. I screen military resumes for NWH and all other things being equal, I'm really just looking to make sure the applicants have 2,000 hours total helicopter with 1,500 turbine PIC. As Velocity indicated, aviation hiring is largely driven by insurance requirements.}

 

^{Once you get in the helicopter to take your intial line check with a company check airmen, it's all depends on if you can fly the helicopter or not, being a 58, 64 or 60 pilot doesn't matter much unless you're flying for a niche' operator like FireHawk, Columbia, or Erickson. I do know that after after being out of the Huey or MD-500 for a few months, and jumping from the fully automated, 54,000lb MH-47 into a lighter helicopter where I have to fly single pilot, use my feet, and think about how much power I'm pulling takes a couple of minutes of re-caging.}

 

^Mike-

[stearmann4]

What paperwork to be legal? I didn't realize you also worked for NW Helicopters, good company I hear.You ever gonna bring the Stearman up to PWT? I'm there Tues-Fri.

 

NWH is a great company, very hard to get in the "circle" though. I started flying for the museum which is owned by the same guy. Flew the Stearman yesterday for an hour, bout' froze to death.

[Lindsey]

 

^{I do know that after after being out of the Huey or MD-500 for a few months, and jumping from the fully automated, 54,000lb MH-47 into a lighter helicopter where I have to fly single pilot, use my feet, and think about how much power I'm pulling takes a couple of minutes of re-caging.}

 

^Mike-

 

Sounds like someone needs more 22 time.

[SBuzzkill]

It's basically a 407

[Lindsey]

 

 

NWH is a great company, very hard to get in the "circle" though. I started flying for the museum which is owned by the same guy. Flew the Stearman yesterday for an hour, bout' froze to death.

 

Yeah I flew for 5 hours yesterday and even though the 22 has doors, covered and everything, it's not anywhere close to airtight. Think I got frostbite in my toes.

[Lindsey]

It's basically a 407

 

Oh ya, that whole "4 blade" thing...what about the engine comparison?

[SBuzzkill]

Not as much power as a 407 unfortunately.

[Lindsey]

Not as much power as a 407 unfortunately.

 

Do you guys still have that control inversion thing with the doors off above doors off Vne?