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Time Building Poll


eagle5
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The time building dilemma  

24 members have voted

  1. 1. Are these offers to essentially "pay to work" worth doing?

    • yes
      2
    • no
      22
  2. 2. Is turbine time worth paying for?

    • yes
      0
    • no
      24
  3. 3. Do ferry flights really offer experience "valuable" enough to pay for?

    • yes
      7
    • no
      17
  4. 4. Would you ever pay to work?

    • yes
      1
    • no
      23
  5. 5. If you have paid for one of these "opportunities" did it open any doors for you (help your career)?

    • yes
      0
    • no
      8
    • n/a
      16


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Do ferry flights really offer experience "valuable" enough to pay for?

 

 

That question depends. How much are they charging and is hotel/travel included? If it's your 1st turbine time do you get to start it? What seat are you in? Is the other pilot a cfii? If it's cheap enough and you're at a point where you're still building time for a rating meaning your buying time anyway then yes.

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I often wonder why people on here are so negative to alot of the opportunities offered... since when is going out solo in the R22/44/300 for a few more hours anything more beneficial? OK, I understand when the "flight offer" is much more money than what you could go get piston time for and I agree that is most likely not beneficial.... but why so negative to an opportunity to put a low time guy in a second seat.... have him pay a small price for the opportunity and have the company and the client get something out of it?

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Just make sure you know what it is your paying for is my only advice. If your just going to hold the cyclic in the co-pilot seat after the "pilot" gets it up and straight and level, your wasting your time.

Now if a pilot is going to give you serious ground on systems, POH knowledge, starting and shutting down and your in the PIC seat, ok maybe.

 

If your a 250hr R22 driver, dropping $6000 on some turbine time isnt productive. Take that money and spend 50hrs learning to long line!

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If your a 250hr R22 driver, dropping $6000 on some turbine time isnt productive. Take that money and spend 50hrs learning to long line!

 

The poll wouldn't allow me to post any more questions, but this example addresses one I wanted to ask. A 300hr R22 driver with 50hrs of long-line training,...is that really going to help him get a job?

 

In other words, does paying for "specific" job training really help?,...or should we just take that money and use it to take a nice vacation, and just wait until we have built enough hours from a paying gig (i.e. teaching) to find an employer willing to train us at no additional charge?

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I like to throw this disclaimer out there, that being an LE pilot I try and be careful about the advice I give to pilots in the civilian market place. But, I did pay for all of my own ratings (dual CFI) before anyone started investing in my training. I chose to do a 500E transition course because my unit flies 500s and I wanted to make sure I had everything possible. Looking back on it, nobody cared. After more than 400hrs of helicopter dual and over 2000TT before I finally got released on my own, I pretty much wasted my money paying for a transition course.

 

My point was that if your dead set on paying for time, at least learn a skill. Not paying for straight and level flight just so you can add a "TURBINE" column to your log book to dazzle your friends. I would say if you have that kind of coin to drop, add ratings, build night xctry (who cares what its in). Check the boxes before you start paying for the weird stuff. If you end up at CFI, 1000hrs and still doors arent opening for you, then maybe you might look at something like a long line or mountain course, or some other type of specialty training.

My advice would be to take a couple thousand and go spend a week somewhere mastering full touch downs.

Until you have your CFI, you shouldnt be paying for anything except your next rating. After that I think its really up to the individual and their specific circumstances.

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There is a slight benefit, IMO, to a huge cross country. A chance to see other places outside of a normal training environment perhaps. If a person was to do a long flight at a reduced cost then it might be beneficial, but I don't think paying a ton for turbine straight and level is that much of a great deal. The fun factor would be there for a new airframe, but not much in the way of making a person more marketable.

 

If a person could use that greatly reduced rate to build night/instrument requirements for ATP at the same time, then the deal gets a whole lot better.

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Save the money! As an entry level pilot, you’re absolutely, 100%, guaranteed, gonna need it in the future……

 

It’s been said a bazillion times before, just because you become employable doesn’t mean this endeavor stops costing you money. In this business, much like the rest of them, it takes money to get a job. If you can’t pay the price for some face-time with a potential employer, all the extra turbine time, Vref time, night time won’t mean squat. Bank on it (no pun intended)…….

 

If you are employable up to CFII certification with 200 hours total time and have met the Robinson SFAR requirement along with a fair amount of S300 time, all of your extra cash should be spent finding employment. You should be able to schmooze extra flight time for free somewhere, somehow… Simply put, stop paying for flight time short of currency…..

 

HOWEVER, if you have a bunch of disposable cash lying around and want to spend it on something worthwhile, hit up a factory school. Bell or Eurocopter….. Why? Insurance underwriters recognize factory training and, some employers prefer it for employment…….

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Save the money! As an entry level pilot, you’re absolutely, 100%, guaranteed, gonna need it in the future……

 

It’s been said a bazillion times before, just because you become employable doesn’t mean this endeavor stops costing you money. In this business, much like the rest of them, it takes money to get a job. If you can’t pay the price for some face-time with a potential employer, all the extra turbine time, Vref time, night time won’t mean squat. Bank on it (no pun intended)…….

 

If you are employable up to CFII certification with 200 hours total time and have met the Robinson SFAR requirement along with a fair amount of S300 time, all of your extra cash should be spent finding employment. You should be able to schmooze extra flight time for free somewhere, somehow… Simply put, stop paying for flight time short of currency…..

 

HOWEVER, if you have a bunch of disposable cash lying around and want to spend it on something worthwhile, hit up a factory school. Bell or Eurocopter….. Why? Insurance underwriters recognize factory training and, some employers prefer it for employment…….

 

That suddenly out of nowhere call, that leads to a last minute flight to the other side of the country, along with a rental car for the two hour drive from the airport to the middle of nowhere "airport" for the interview/flight check (not to mention the hotel) can easily run around $1500. I agree! SAVE YOUR MONEY!

 

The Bell/Eurocopter schools? Hell, if I had that kind of money just lying around, I'd buy a motorcycle,...and a jetski! :)

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The questions are loaded. Pay to work? Would I ever pay to work? Heck no. You get PAID to work, otherwise it's not work. Would I pay a reduced price to build some time? Yes, if it was beneficial to me as well as the other party. But you should carefully weigh your options. Make sure what you are doing is really going to be in your best interest. I have seen several of these job offers that would not really be saving you very much money, especially if you need to take time off from a real job to go do them. I have had to pass up several "time building" opportunities because, even though the flight time would be free, I would be losing too much money from not being at my paying job. If I was a single guy, I would be eating Ramen noodles and bumming rides at every opportunity. But I have priorities.

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The questions are loaded. Pay to work? Would I ever pay to work? Heck no. You get PAID to work, otherwise it's not work.

 

Sorry, I guess I should clarify. By "pay to work", I mean these offers to fly helicopters that are already generating revenue for the operator. Like an operator who is being paid to ferry their aircraft, but also invites you to pay to fly it, or perhaps paying to fly a photographer around while he takes pictures which will generate revenue for the company. In other words, "double dipping", all in the name of time building!

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"Valuable" cross country experience? I've done a few very long cross country ferry flights, didn't find anything really "valuable" about the experience,...unless you're a wanabee airline pilot! Nice views though.

 

Unless you're 10hrs of cross country time away from getting your 135 or ATP, and your boss says he'll give you a raise once you get the new rating, NEVER PAY FOR A FERRY FLIGHT!

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"Valuable" cross country experience? I've done a few very long cross country ferry flights, didn't find anything really "valuable" about the experience,...unless you're a wanabee airline pilot! Nice views though.

 

Unless you're 10hrs of cross country time away from getting your 135 or ATP, and your boss says he'll give you a raise once you get the new rating, NEVER PAY FOR A FERRY FLIGHT!

 

What if you want to build time and they are offering the opportunity to fly at a discounted rate? You have to weigh what you are getting vs. what you are putting in. I would say never put in more than you will get out of it. I have seen some shady operators. Guys that won't pay their pilots, or find new pilots that are so desperate for experience and hours that they will basically do anything. I have also seen some very legit arrangements to bring in extra revenue. If you need R44 time, and someone offers to ferry an aircraft at half the normal price, even if the ferry flight is already being paid for, the operator is making some extra cash and the pilot is getting flight time at half the usual cost.

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What if you want to build time and they are offering the opportunity to fly at a discounted rate? You have to weigh what you are getting vs. what you are putting in. I would say never put in more than you will get out of it. I have seen some shady operators. Guys that won't pay their pilots, or find new pilots that are so desperate for experience and hours that they will basically do anything. I have also seen some very legit arrangements to bring in extra revenue. If you need R44 time, and someone offers to ferry an aircraft at half the normal price, even if the ferry flight is already being paid for, the operator is making some extra cash and the pilot is getting flight time at half the usual cost.

 

If for some reason you feel you "need" R44 time, find one of those discounted deals out there that will allow you to actually do things in it (like off airport landings, autos, and what not) really get to know the aircraft. Don't waste your money on straight and level!

 

But fine, if you're a CFII with 15hrs in an R44, and your boss says that once you have 25hrs in one he'll let you teach in his, then go ahead, knock yourself out. I just hate when they refer to these ferry flights as "valuable" experience, because in my experience, they're not!

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If for some reason you feel you "need" R44 time, find one of those discounted deals out there that will allow you to actually do things in it (like off airport landings, autos, and what not) really get to know the aircraft. Don't waste your money on straight and level!

 

But fine, if you're a CFII with 15hrs in an R44, and your boss says that once you have 25hrs in one he'll let you teach in his, then go ahead, knock yourself out. I just hate when they refer to these ferry flights as "valuable" experience, because in my experience, they're not!

 

Point taken, but I feel that you should be able to get a good deal of experience out of cross-country flying. If you aren't, I suspect something is wrong.

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Point taken, but I feel that you should be able to get a good deal of experience out of cross-country flying. If you aren't, I suspect something is wrong.

 

I guess it just depends on the type of experience you're looking for? Me, I want a little more for my money than straight and level State after State! However, I once thought as you do.

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I never got to do one of those cross country flights where I could only jump in the helicopter, point it east (or west), fly for 15-20 hours straight and level, and land at my destination.

 

I usually had to plan the route, constantly check weather, plan fuel stops, call to make sure they had fuel available, schedule stops with either a FBO car or a restaurant so I could eat, and arrange lodging.

 

Guess I've been really unlucky.

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I never got to do one of those cross country flights where I could only jump in the helicopter, point it east (or west), fly for 15-20 hours straight and level, and land at my destination.

 

I usually had to plan the route, constantly check weather, plan fuel stops, call to make sure they had fuel available, schedule stops with either a FBO car or a restaurant so I could eat, and arrange lodging.

 

Guess I've been really unlucky.

What ? No inflight refueling capability. That would really extend your range.

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I never got to do one of those cross country flights where I could only jump in the helicopter, point it east (or west), fly for 15-20 hours straight and level, and land at my destination.

 

I usually had to plan the route, constantly check weather, plan fuel stops, call to make sure they had fuel available, schedule stops with either a FBO car or a restaurant so I could eat, and arrange lodging.

 

Guess I've been really unlucky.

 

Don't get me wrong here guys, I'm not saying that cross country flying dosen't require some activity from the pilot. I'm saying that this type of experience isn't worth paying for! Once you learn how to do it during your PPL/COM training, there's no reason to continue to pay someone to just sit there and watch you do all the work!

 

By the way, if I"m out flying in weather so questionable that I have to check it "constantly", I'd damn well better be getting paid!

 

By the by the way, :D your description is correct. Some of these flights are just jump in, point it east, and go, and all you get to do is sit there hold onto the stick and watch the hobbs roll over!,...but hey, at least I was paying a discounted rate! :rolleyes:

Edited by pilot#476398
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I think this whole topic is assuming you are an unemployed pilot that is trying to build hours or get an edge for a job. If you have a choice between paying full price, or paying a discounted rate, what would you choose? Every scenario is going to be different, and what you get out of it is really up to you. But I see nothing wrong with an owner/operator that wants to make some extra cash by filling a seat and charging a discounted rate for it. If you have an opportunity to get free flight time, or even get paid to do it, great! But if you are still at a point where you have to pay for your hours, every little bit helps, and I would be willing to bet you could learn a lot from an extended cross country flight. You said once you felt the way I do about it, so I am guessing you've been there and done that a few times. Once you've done it a few times the floodgates of knowledge start to close and you might only pick up a few new experiences, so opportunities like a ferry flight are less valuable to you and maybe not worth the money. But for the newly minted pilot, it can be a very rewarding and valuable experience and well worth the money.

 

My advice would be to carefully consider any offer, weigh the positive and negative aspects, and if you are going to be getting your money's worth out of it, go for it!

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Don't get me wrong here guys, I'm not saying that cross country flying dosen't require some activity from the pilot. I'm saying that this type of experience isn't worth paying for! Once you learn how to do it during your PPL/COM training, there's no reason to continue to pay someone to just sit there and watch you do all the work!

 

By the way, if I"m out flying in weather so questionable that I have to check it "constantly", I'd damn well better be getting paid!

 

By the by the way, :D your description is correct. Some of these flights are just jump in, point it east, and go, and all you get to do is sit there hold onto the stick and watch the hobbs roll over!,...but hey, at least I was paying a discounted rate! :rolleyes:

 

The cross country ferry flight isnt worth it to you to pay for. Some people, I'm imagining, lack your wealth of experience and would benefit.

 

One person's trash flight is another's treasure :-)

 

On another note, I always check weather. In my limited experience, I have found weather changes throughout the day and my departure airport weather doesn't follow me as I travel for hundreds of miles.

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The cross country ferry flight isnt worth it to you to pay for. Some people, I'm imagining, lack your wealth of experience and would benefit.

 

One person's trash flight is another's treasure :-)

 

On another note, I always check weather. In my limited experience, I have found weather changes throughout the day and my departure airport weather doesn't follow me as I travel for hundreds of miles.

 

I always check the weather too, but if the weather is so bad that I have to check it "constantly" as you put it, its going to be a flight that I'm getting paid for! I'm not spending what little money I have to go and fly in weather so bad that it could easily kill me!

 

As for my "wealth of experience" it was only aquired after doing a couple of these "valuable time building pay to ferry flights", which is why I now say, don't waste your money!

 

...but I guess we can only learn from our own mistakes!

 

You guys may have learned a lot on the ferry flights you paid to fly, but I didn't experience anything I wouldn't have experienced if I had just rented a 22 and done the flight myself!,..or better yet, had taken my girlfriend along, instead of that double dipper with the bad smelling cologne!

Edited by pilot#476398
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Yeah I guess it depends on what side of the coin you are when it comes to how much is gained.

 

I never charged anybody for the ferry flights I did, but I did the planning for them so I guess that's a whole different beast than just showing up and pointing the helicopter in the direction that was told.

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