Will the Airline retirement spree have an affect on the helicopter industry?

[EchoPapa97]

With the huge amount of retirements coming up do you guys think it will have some kind of affect on the helicopter job market?

 

I think it would because more people that would have otherwise tried for a helicopter career will go fixed wing for the better opportunities, leaving more jobs available for entry level helicopter pilots. Just a speculation.

[eagle5]

We become helicopter pilots because we love flying helicopters, not because there are no jobs in fixed wing!

 

If you were under the impression that some people were becoming helicopter pilots because they're easier to get into than airplanes, but now due to some sort of mass airline pilot retirement, its going to be easier to get into airplanes, and thus causing them to change their minds and now go with airplanes leaving more open slots for helicopter newbies,...you've been misinformed!

 

I hate to break it to you, but nothing is going to open up the entry-level side for commercial helicopters. There will always be a need for highly experienced pilots, and there will always be a butt-load of pilots trying to get experienced.

Edited June 14, 2012 by eagle5

[JDHelicopterPilot]

Short answer: No

[nightsta1ker]

I really doubt it will have much of an effect on the fixed wing market, let alone the helicopter market. There are pilots on all levels poised to take those jobs, and fill the ones that are left vacant. This is the "pilot's goldmine" fairy-tale that I have heard ever since I started taking flying lessons. For helicopters, it's always been the "The vietnam pilots that have been holding all these jobs for the last 30+ years are getting ready to retire and there will be a huge void in the job market. Train now and you will be poised to slide right into a job that pays $100,000 a year!" I imagine you have been told something similar about the airline industry. The retirements happen gradually, and their spots are filled by a backlog of qualified pilots that are just waiting to move up. There will not be a huge vacuum of jobs that suddenly opens up.

Edited June 14, 2012 by nightsta1ker

[EchoPapa97]

I wasn't saying it was going to be a massive affect on the helicopter job market and its going to be a pilot market. Not at all. All I was saying was I thought that because the airlines are losing almost half of their pilot workforce over then next 5-10 years that some people considering a career in aviation might choose airlines for the better career opportunity. i.e. there won't be the ominous furlough horror stories that were a problem the past decade.

 

And I would say some people are just happy flying no matter what they fly and a lot of people will choose the Category of aviation that has better job opportunities. Not everyone flies ONLY because they love it.

 

I'm not saying this will happen, I'm saying in my mind, its a possibility. Crazier things have happened.

[eagle5]

"...the airlines are losing almost half of their pilot workforce over then next 5-10 years..."

 

Not sure where you got this idea, but I wouldn't bet on it actually happening! As has been said, rumours like this have been spred all through aviation for decades, and they're NEVER true!

[Fred0311]

Too me less wannabe helicopter pilots will make it harder to become one. The entry level job is flight instructor and with out students schools won't be hiring them and the ones they have won't fly. Try to get to 1500-2000 hours without being a cfi or cfii and it looks to be almost impossible. I know there are a few stories out there were people get hired right out the gate but I'm not lucky enough to have a close friend or relative in aviation.

[EchoPapa97]

"...the airlines are losing almost half of their pilot workforce over then next 5-10 years..."

 

Not sure where you got this idea, but I wouldn't bet on it actually happening! As has been said, rumours like this have been spred all through aviation for decades, and they're NEVER true!

 

This came from a captain at Delta who was working to get a preferential hiring of our flight program at my university.

 

An express jet HR rep said the same thing.

 

I don't know the exact figure but it was between 1/3 and 1/2 of the industries pilot's.

[Lindsey]

EchoPapa--

 

Realize who you are getting this info from: two people whose JOB it is to get you in the door to start training. I'm not saying they are all dishonest, or they are bad people, but the truth might get pushed aside or get "prettied up." Helicopter flights schools are no more innocent.

[EchoPapa97]

Too me less wannabe helicopter pilots will make it harder to become one. The entry level job is flight instructor and with out students schools won't be hiring them and the ones they have won't fly. Try to get to 1500-2000 hours without being a cfi or cfii and it looks to be almost impossible. I know there are a few stories out there were people get hired right out the gate but I'm not lucky enough to have a close friend or relative in aviation.

Good point. I didn't think of this. I guess I meant more of an entry level job after instructing. Instructing seems more like a survival tactic than a job to me lol

[EchoPapa97]

http://travel.usatod...soar/48661596/1

 

I'm not sure its exactly exaggerated. I actually mentioned this to the flight school and brought it up to the Reps from the airlines to get them talking about it.

 

It sure as hell isn't "internet rumor."

[eagle5]

http://travel.usatod...soar/48661596/1

 

I'm not sure its exactly exaggerated. I actually mentioned this to the flight school and brought it up to the Reps from the airlines to get them talking about it.

 

It sure as hell isn't "internet rumor."

 

I remember reading similar articles years ago when I first looked into flying, only replace "airlines" with "helicopter operators"! I know it seems legit, but if you believe this stuff,...I've got a bridge I'd like to sell ya!

[EchoPapa97]

I remember reading similar articles years ago when I first looked into flying, only replace "airlines" with "helicopter operators"! I know it seems legit, but if you believe this stuff,...I've got a bridge I'd like to sell ya!

Its great being a new forum member, automatically slapped with the "oh look he's new, lets not take him seriously, he must be naive and dumb."

 

I thought this was all bs at first, but I've talked to many people about it in the airline industry that are taking it seriously. I've talked to Line Managers, Airline Pilots, family members in aviation who all believe this actually holds some weight.

 

I have first hand sources from some fairly reputable people, and the best anyone here can come up with is "Oh they've been saying the for years."

 

I mean can any of you come up with anything other than "it won't happen." Seriously, I thought forums were for discussion.

 

How about something like why it won't happen. Evidence, facts, ect. I'm a reasonable open minded guy, discuss it, convince me. Don't just sit an refuse to think that maybe a new guy might know a thing or two.

 

This is a quote from Captain Afton(who is also the Hiring Manager, I would think a hiring manager would be proficient on this topic) of Express Jet Airlines "There aren't enough pilot's in flight school right now to meet the demands of the airlines in the next 10 years."

 

Also another thing that is going to hugely affect the airline job market is the HR5900 law which will require every FO to have at least 1500 hours of total flight time and hold a current ATP. Right now you only need about 800 hours to be hired on a regional with no ATP.

 

This is going to create a huge deficit of regional airline pilot's as well. The reason there hasn't been the big retirement chunk yet is because it was delayed by 5 years by increasing the retirement age of airline pilot's from 60 to 65 years old.

[aeroscout]

The trouble with being a new guy is not having been around long enough to see repetitive trends.

[Spike]

With the huge amount of retirements coming up do you guys think it will have some kind of affect on the helicopter job market?

 

I think it would because more people that would have otherwise tried for a helicopter career will go fixed wing for the better opportunities, leaving more jobs available for entry level helicopter pilots. Just a speculation.

 

Generally, aviators have “type A” personalities. With that, most will seek an aviation sector based on their desire and not on the particular aviation sector employment possibilities. Plus, between FW and rotary, the odds of employment are probably the same. Historically, with pilot employment, each sector will “ebb and flow” over time. As a wannabe pilot, if you become overly concerned about the “ebb”, you’ll never “flow”……..

Edited June 15, 2012 by Spike

[eagle5]

Its great being a new forum member, automatically slapped with the "oh look he's new, lets not take him seriously, he must be naive and dumb."

 

I thought this was all bs at first, but I've talked to many people about it in the airline industry that are taking it seriously. I've talked to Line Managers, Airline Pilots, family members in aviation who all believe this actually holds some weight.

 

I have first hand sources from some fairly reputable people, and the best anyone here can come up with is "Oh they've been saying the for years."

 

I mean can any of you come up with anything other than "it won't happen." Seriously, I thought forums were for discussion.

 

How about something like why it won't happen. Evidence, facts, ect. I'm a reasonable open minded guy, discuss it, convince me. Don't just sit an refuse to think that maybe a new guy might know a thing or two.

 

This is a quote from Captain Afton(who is also the Hiring Manager, I would think a hiring manager would be proficient on this topic) of Express Jet Airlines "There aren't enough pilot's in flight school right now to meet the demands of the airlines in the next 10 years."

 

Also another thing that is going to hugely affect the airline job market is the HR5900 law which will require every FO to have at least 1500 hours of total flight time and hold a current ATP. Right now you only need about 800 hours to be hired on a regional with no ATP.

 

This is going to create a huge deficit of regional airline pilot's as well. The reason there hasn't been the big retirement chunk yet is because it was delayed by 5 years by increasing the retirement age of airline pilot's from 60 to 65 years old.

 

I know fixed-wing pilots who were told the same thing 10yrs ago! 5 or so years ago you couldn't open a helicopter school's website without being hit in the face with, in big bold type; MAJOR PILOT SHORTAGE! followed by all the wonderful reasons why.

 

Eventually, as we all struggled to find work, everyone said the same thing, "what happened to the pilot shortage?", both fixed-wing and helicopters!

 

After speaking with many of the older pilots, we also found out that they were once told of a shortage as well, even back in the 70s!

 

This is a vicious cycle of industry propaganda, not internet forum rumers! They've done it before, and it seems they're starting again,...you're being baited kid!

 

I wish I was wrong, but history and experience say otherwise!

Edited June 15, 2012 by eagle5

[EchoPapa97]

I know fixed-wing pilots who were told the same thing 10yrs ago! 5 or so years ago you couldn't open a helicopter school's website without being hit in the face with, in big bold type; MAJOR PILOT SHORTAGE! followed by all the wonderful reasons why.

 

Eventually, as we all struggled to find work, everyone said the same thing, "what happened to the pilot shortage?", both fixed-wing and helicopters!

 

After speaking with many of the older pilots, we also found out that they were once told of a shortage as well, even back in the 70s!

 

This is a vicious cycle of industry propaganda, not internet forum rumers! They've done it before, and it seems they're starting again,...you're being baited kid!

 

I wish I was wrong, but history and experience say otherwise!

 

I'm not basing any of my career decisions on what the industry is saying. I could care less if there was a pilot shortage or not a single job available. I understand there will be a lot of living poor until you can land a job. I understand the huge financial debt I will be in. I understand the risks. I know this stuff has been said before.

 

The whole point was that I wanted to discuss is if this shortage became true, what affects would it have had on other aviation related industries. Like the helicopter industry.

 

I am in no way one of those new guys who is saying," Upcoming pilot shortage, should I become a pilot?" I already am. I've made the decision. I have both a fixed wing private with a multi engine add-on and a private rotorcraft. I'm not being baited into this career, I know it will be hard.

[gary-mike]

Pilot shortage? Yes there is, look at the job listings, the shortage is in experienced/qualified pilots.

 

Also another thing that is going to hugely affect the airline job market is the HR5900 law which will require every FO to have at least 1500 hours of total flight time and hold a current ATP. Right now you only need about 800 hours to be hired on a regional with no ATP.

 

However, there is no instructor pilot shortage. You need to have a plan to gain the hours needed to get that ATP and that first "real world" job. I can be and is done all the time, but people that don't do their research and expect to have a $100,000 a year job as soon as they are certified end up dissapointed.

 

By the way, I don't think any one here thinks you are just a nieve newbie, they are just sharing their knowledge and experiences. I am not a newbie to this site, but I am to the industry. I haven't even officially started training yet. I am still researching and waiting for my opportunity to start. That said, I have about 2 years of watching the job listings and learning from others advice and knowledge.

 

Bottom line, there are plenty negative people, many who live the reality, and others that live in a dream world. Do your own research, and find the path that leads to your dreams.

 

Welcome to VR

[eagle5]

 

The whole point was that I wanted to discuss is if this shortage became true, what affects would it have had on other aviation related industries. Like the helicopter industry.

 

 

I've often wondered how the industry would be effected if tour companies in the grand canyon started hiring 150hr pilots and flight instructors were required by regulation to have 1000, but why bother discussing something that WILL NEVER HAPPEN!?

[nightsta1ker]

My advice is this: If you are really passionate about this and want to do it, go for it. Pursue it to the full extent possible for as long as you can sustain yourself. If you demonstrate proficiency and a good work ethic, someone will notice. I wouldn't let my stance be swayed either way by these rumors of job booms on the horizon. It doesn't mean you will get a job. And NO job boom does not mean that you WON'T get a job. The jobs are out there, but it often takes a lot of networking to get them. The industry has been a bit stagnant due to the economy, and I think the evidence is pointing to the conveyor belt beginning to move again, simply due to turnover. But this does not mean that at the drop of a hat there are going to be thousands of pilot jobs that open at once. I really doubt we will see a huge "boom". The more likely scenario is that the schools that are barely hanging on will recover enough to stay open, and the conveyor belt will start turning a little faster than it has been. There certainly is an ebb and flow to this industry, just in the last 10 years I have seen how the cycle works. It's never as big a deal as it is made out to be, and for the dedicated guy who puts his heart into finding that job, it should make little difference. What separates the guys that will find a job and those that wont is often attitude and work ethic (who you know definitely plays into that, but if you haven't impressed who you know, they won't hire you).

 

As far as flight instructing goes, I would say it is more of a critical experience building phase of a pilot's career than a 'survival tactic'. It's been said that in order to teach something you must have a very thorough understanding of it. Instructing forces you to learn the subjects in far more detail than you would otherwise, so that you can learn to convey that knowledge to your students. Students have a tendency to ask questions you don't know the answer to, and you are forced to find those answers. I have found that every student teaches me almost as much as I teach them. It has been an extremely valuable experience for me and I found that I actually enjoy it enough that I can see myself doing it indefinitely. If you go into it with a positive attitude, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

[Spike]

I wish I had a dime………….

 

Ask the majority of the civilian trained “pros” with experience how they built time in order to advance and the overwhelming answer would be; as a CFI……. Basically, it’s not a matter of choice and truly is an important part of the total process. Anyone wishing to enter into this business to become a pro-helo-pilot should fully understand this. Plus, I know the saying is detested by some but the reality is; it’s become a “rite of passage”…..

 

 

 

You need to have a plan to gain the hours needed to get that ATP and that first "real world" job.

 

ATP certification is not necessary for a “real world” job……..

Edited June 15, 2012 by Spike

[gary-mike]

ATP certification is not necessary for a “real world” job……..

 

I understand this Spike, I was refering to an earlier post which I quoted in my ubove post. I have actually seen very few job listings that even mention it.

 

The post I quoted was refering to airline pilots... makes sense that they would need an ATP.

Edited June 15, 2012 by gary-mike

[Spike]

The post I quoted was refering to airline pilots... makes sense that they would need an ATP.

 

Rrrrrrogerdat......

[EchoPapa97]

Rrrrrrogerdat......

I understand this Spike, I was refering to an earlier post which I quoted in my ubove post. I have actually seen very few job listings that even mention it.

 

The post I quoted was refering to airline pilots... makes sense that they would need an ATP.

 

Not really, an ATP is more like a Captain's license in the airline industry. Now your going to basically have two captains in the cockpit instead of one. Not to mention you need a type rating to use your ATP so you have to spend 10 grand to get type rated in the jet you intend to fly before you get the job.

 

The new HR5900 law was basically the result of the Colgan Air Flight 3407 crash. Its not much different from how Bush's Homeland Security was able to get through. People got scared and made irrational decisions.

[gary-mike]

Not really, an ATP is more like a Captain's license in the airline industry. Now your going to basically have two captains in the cockpit instead of one. Not to mention you need a type rating to use your ATP so you have to spend 10 grand to get type rated in the jet you intend to fly before you get the job.

 

The new HR5900 law was basically the result of the Colgan Air Flight 3407 crash. Its not much different from how Bush's Homeland Security was able to get through. People got scared and made irrational decisions.

 

I was not aware of that, admittedly I have not looked into the airline career field, it has just never interested me. Thanks for the info though, I like learning new things about aviation.

 

I see how my post might not make much sense, I referenced a quote about airline pilots but the majority of my post was about the rotor wing industry. (as far as jobs/pilot shortages) It all made sense in my head, I'm just not quite the word smith I should be.

 

One area in aviation that I heard (straight from the horses mouth) that is hurting, is ATC, at least at SLC. I would believe that since they were in no way trying to recruit people from the audience.