Will the Airline retirement spree have an affect on the helicopter industry?

[EchoPapa97]

My advice is this: If you are really passionate about this and want to do it, go for it. Pursue it to the full extent possible for as long as you can sustain yourself. If you demonstrate proficiency and a good work ethic, someone will notice. I wouldn't let my stance be swayed either way by these rumors of job booms on the horizon. It doesn't mean you will get a job. And NO job boom does not mean that you WON'T get a job. The jobs are out there, but it often takes a lot of networking to get them. The industry has been a bit stagnant due to the economy, and I think the evidence is pointing to the conveyor belt beginning to move again, simply due to turnover. But this does not mean that at the drop of a hat there are going to be thousands of pilot jobs that open at once. I really doubt we will see a huge "boom". The more likely scenario is that the schools that are barely hanging on will recover enough to stay open, and the conveyor belt will start turning a little faster than it has been. There certainly is an ebb and flow to this industry, just in the last 10 years I have seen how the cycle works. It's never as big a deal as it is made out to be, and for the dedicated guy who puts his heart into finding that job, it should make little difference. What separates the guys that will find a job and those that wont is often attitude and work ethic (who you know definitely plays into that, but if you haven't impressed who you know, they won't hire you).

 

As far as flight instructing goes, I would say it is more of a critical experience building phase of a pilot's career than a 'survival tactic'. It's been said that in order to teach something you must have a very thorough understanding of it. Instructing forces you to learn the subjects in far more detail than you would otherwise, so that you can learn to convey that knowledge to your students. Students have a tendency to ask questions you don't know the answer to, and you are forced to find those answers. I have found that every student teaches me almost as much as I teach them. It has been an extremely valuable experience for me and I found that I actually enjoy it enough that I can see myself doing it indefinitely. If you go into it with a positive attitude, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

 

By survival tactic I meant that most people don't want to instruct. Like you said, they're instructing because they have to if they ever want to find a job. Thus they are surviving, not thriving. I didn't mean that it wasn't an important learning phase.

[EchoPapa97]

I was not aware of that, admittedly I have not looked into the airline career field, it has just never interested me. Thanks for the info though, I like learning new things about aviation.

 

I see how my post might not make much sense, I referenced a quote about airline pilots but the majority of my post was about the rotor wing industry. (as far as jobs/pilot shortages) It all made sense in my head, I'm just not quite the word smith I should be.

 

One area in aviation that I heard (straight from the horses mouth) that is hurting, is ATC, at least at SLC. I would believe that since they were in no way trying to recruit people from the audience.

 

I did assume that people new more than I thought they did with the new law and ATPs and I didn't explain things very well. I fly both fixed wing and rotorcraft categories so I tend to forget people who know one don't know a lot about the other.

 

I've had some fixed wing pilot's look at my like I had two heads when I've talked about rotorcraft things with them...

[Spike]

By survival tactic I meant that most people don't want to instruct. Like you said, they're instructing because they have to if they ever want to find a job. Thus they are surviving, not thriving. I didn't mean that it wasn't an important learning phase.

 

In my opinion,

 

Most don’t want to instruct because they instantly want to fly a big turbine machine conducting the ultimate mission….. Now more than ever, people today want to achieve something without earning it… The desire not to instruct is true for most; however, it’s not based in reality. If anyone can’t accept the reality of what it takes to succeed in this business, they should choose another career path…

 

Moreover, “not thriving” is a matter of opinion. IMO, flight instruction is the first step to thriving. And, it’s only those who’ve done it that understand this….

[eagle5]

In my opinion,

 

Most don’t want to instruct because they instantly want to fly a big turbine machine conducting the ultimate mission….. Now more than ever, people today want to achieve something without earning it…

 

I'm going to have to disagree with this. I've met plenty of guys (myself included) who would have been perfectly happy flying photos or pipeline in an R22, or tours in an R44. These jobs are just too few and far between. To say the only job you "earn" fresh out of flight school is instructing, is rediculous. No one really "earns" that job, its simply the only one available!

[Fred0311]

With having lower time pilots being the instructors I would think its pretty important to instruct since your not getting the wisdom of a 10,000 hour pilot. In the military when ever someone was sent to a specialized class they would have to teach what they learned back to the teachers and then to the rest of their platoon when they returned from the class. Teaching is simply the best way to learn. If have my way I'll begin and end a career in helicopters instructing but when I end it I intend to have my name on the side of the machine...

[eagle5]

Have an instructor bail on you half way through a rating because he finally built enogh hours to land a turbine job, and you might change your mind about low-time pilots instructing as a good idea!

[Pohi]

 

 

I'm going to have to disagree with this. I've met plenty of guys (myself included) who would have been perfectly happy flying photos or pipeline in an R22, or tours in an R44. These jobs are just too few and far between. To say the only job you "earn" fresh out of flight school is instructing, is rediculous. No one really "earns" that job, its simply the only one available!

 

I think he is referring to earning the turbine jobs by putting in the time as an instructor, earning hours that actually make a pilot better

 

Pipeline and tours are easy time building jobs that are easy enough for an average airplane pilot to do.

[Pohi]

Have an instructor bail on you half way through a rating because he finally built enogh hours to land a turbine job, and you might change your mind about low-time pilots instructing as a good idea!

 

I went through 3 instructors on my path to CFII (in less than a year) that moved on to other jobs. I'm sure this isn't even close to setting any records.

 

....it's just part of the process I guess. Not perfect but it works

 

 

[eagle5]

I went through 3 instructors on my path to CFII (in less than a year) that moved on to other jobs. I'm sure this isn't even close to setting any records.

 

....it's just part of the process I guess. Not perfect but it works

 

Its sad to say, but there is only one reason why 99% of us become instructors, and that's to build enough time to get out of instructing! Which is why I'll bet most of us have had instructors leave mid-training. Once they have those hours, they're gone before their student can say, "what did you say the pitot tube was for...?"

 

Such is life. New pilots must go where experienced pilots don't want to be!

 

...but as you said,..."it works"!

 

Not to get off topic.

[Spike]

I'm going to have to disagree with this. I've met plenty of guys (myself included) who would have been perfectly happy flying photos or pipeline in an R22, or tours in an R44. These jobs are just too few and far between. To say the only job you "earn" fresh out of flight school is instructing, is rediculous. No one really "earns" that job, its simply the only one available!

 

Its sad to say, but there is only one reason why 99% of us become instructors, and that's to build enough time to get out of instructing! Which is why I'll bet most of us have had instructors leave mid-training. Once they have those hours, they're gone before their student can say, "what did you say the pitot tube was for...?"

 

Such is life. New pilots must go where experienced pilots don't want to be!

 

...but as you said,..."it works"!

 

Not to get off topic.

 

You are free to disagree but this begs the question. Are you, or have you ever been, an instructor? If so, for how long? If not, you’re talking out of your posterior….

 

Every student who did what it took to get hired as a CFI, absolutely 100% earned it. Unfortunately, your statement demeans flight instruction as a whole. And, job availability is a matter of perspective. There are reasons why some CFI graduates never become working CFI’s. The most common reason is they obviously see flight instruction as a “time building” endeavor, which flight school employers detest. Hence, no job...

 

Besides, my point is, flight instruction provides pilots with an extremely important opportunity to gain valuable knowledge, skill and judgment to become a highly proficient pilot above and beyond those other types of operations you mentioned…. This is the reason why “real world” operators prefer to hire pilots with CFI experience…

 

In any case, ANYONE who becomes a CFI just to “build time” is doing so at the expense of the student. This is a flat out rip off. And, if your 99% comment is accurate (which it’s virtually impossible to know every pilot in existence), then maybe that’s why new pilot standards are currently in the dumper….

Edited June 16, 2012 by Spike

[eagle5]

I have nothing against flight instructing, but just because you earn that certificate doesn't mean you're entitled to a job! Where I learned it was part of the training to "moch" teach each other. In other words it was well understood that the cycle was students became teachers who in turn took more students and made them into teachers,and so on, so that everyone could build time for that entry-level non-teaching job.

 

I suppose you were one of those 150hr commercial pilots who turned down a job flying pipeline in an R22, or tours in an R44,etc..to instead get his CFII and teach, but in my experience so far, we all teach because there is no other way to build time,...period! And I've known too many CFIIs who have bailed as soon as they had the hours to, to believe that the majority of CFIIs aren't just using instructing as a stepping stone!

[jimbo2181]

Just because its a stepping stone doesn't mean they don't do the job well. My first three jobs were stepping stones. I told them going in that's what they were but it was my job at the time and I always strived to be the best.

[eagle5]

Just because its a stepping stone doesn't mean they don't do the job well. My first three jobs were stepping stones. I told them going in that's what they were but it was my job at the time and I always strived to be the best.

 

Exactly!

 

Just because I'm calling it what it is doesn't mean we don't strive to do it the best we can! My instructor was a very good one, I really liked flying with him, and I perfectly understand him leaving before my training was over, however, he could have at least fininshed the rating we were more than half way through!

Edited June 17, 2012 by eagle5

[nightsta1ker]

I'm certainly not saying you have to love it to be good at it. But you have to be good at it to succeed, and learning to like it certainly won't hurt. I have my days when I want to bang my head on the tarmac, but watching someone have that "A-ha!" moment makes it worth it to me.

[Lindsey]

Exactly!

 

Just because I'm calling it what it is doesn't mean we don't strive to do it the best we can! My instructor was a very good one, I really liked flying with him, and I perfectly understand him leaving before my training was over, however, he could have at least fininshed the rating we were more than half way through!

 

You are coming across as extremely bitter. Can you not understand why he would leave? It was simply not up to him. I was in your exact shoes--almost halfway through private, and my first instructor left to do tours. Was I upset? Hell no! She earned that job, and when good gigs like that are so rare in this economy, people are not in the position to negotiate a later start date to accomodate a student--no matter how much they would like to. Here's the thing--my CFI *CLEARLY* loved instructing, and while she did leave for tours, who can blame her? Who could blame anyone who leaves for such an increasingly rare opportunity?

 

It seems you are equating the CFI to a greedy hour-hog who will pick up and leave the instant they can. I strongly disagree with your 99% figure. I would say that 75% of the instructors at my company love teaching. But of course they are looking for the next big thing--nicer helicopter, more pay, etc. I don't understand the bitterness.

 

Have you also considered that CFIs make next to nothing, and that even those most dedicated to instruction, and who would otherwise strive to be a career CFI, simply can't, due to pay?

 

Just my two cents.

[Spike]

I have nothing against flight instructing, but just because you earn that certificate doesn't mean you're entitled to a job! Where I learned it was part of the training to "moch" teach each other. In other words it was well understood that the cycle was students became teachers who in turn took more students and made them into teachers,and so on, so that everyone could build time for that entry-level non-teaching job.

 

I suppose you were one of those 150hr commercial pilots who turned down a job flying pipeline in an R22, or tours in an R44,etc..to instead get his CFII and teach, but in my experience so far, we all teach because there is no other way to build time,...period! And I've known too many CFIIs who have bailed as soon as they had the hours to, to believe that the majority of CFIIs aren't just using instructing as a stepping stone!

 

By not answering my question, I can only assume you’re not, nor have ever been a helicopter flight instructor…. BTW, students teaching students don’t count…..

 

Please do not misinterpret my post. Earning a CFI rating by no means equates to entitlement. Everyone knows, or at minimum should have known, as a student, you are closely observed as you progress through your training for your potential for future employment. This IS the Holy Grail of entry level employment. Not understanding this is career suicide…..

 

Furthermore, people move up and out of flight instruction for many reasons and, for their own reasons. Just so I can simplify this for you I will tell you this. I would flight instruct in a nanosecond if it provided me the pay and benefits my current job provides… But, it doesn’t. Unfortunately, my current lifestyle doesn’t allow me to donate my time/experience to up and comers like you (short of the information I’m providing to you now). This is why I frequent this website. That is, to teach. And, for what? Nada my friend, NADA….

 

Additionally, at 150hrs R44 pipeline gigs didn’t exist because R44’s didn’t exist. Once I became educated and understood what it took to succeed in this business, flight instruction became the first step in my yellow-brick-road. That is, something to achieve and prefect in order to succeed. Having said that, I’m quite sure you’ve seen questions like this; “as a pro pilot knowing what you know now, what would you do differently?” While there are some minor things I’d definitely change, flight instruction isn’t one of them…..

 

While we can debate this to death, you should understand flight instruction is not a means to an end. It’s a helicopter job and nothing more…… Flight instructors are professionals who deliver a service so people can get ahead and achieve their goals…… To marginalize it is bunk…..

Edited June 17, 2012 by Spike

[Rich1]

EchoPapa,

 

Would agree with most of the posters.... Have been flying FW and RW since the late 1970s and have heard almost these same exact rumours and messages...vietnam, airline retirees, etc. those have been around a long time.

 

Where there is and will always be a shortage is for young, enthusiastic and professional pilots with great judgement, social skills and a willingness to work hard. Those folks will always be in high demand regardless of the job. Hang in there partner and follow your passion...it will be worth the sacrifice in the end. The sacrifice, the debt....all of that comes with the territory...same with an MBA, a Law Degree or a medical degree...there is much more entry level before there is the big time:-)

 

And sorry for the more "gruff" among us on the site...there is a wealth of amazing experience here both technical and practical....on occasion we just forget that we were all beginners once full of questions and excitement. Keep asking those questions..we'll keep answering them...gruff and all:-)

[eagle5]

You are coming across as extremely bitter. Can you not understand why he would leave? It was simply not up to him. I was in your exact shoes--almost halfway through private, and my first instructor left to do tours. Was I upset? Hell no! She earned that job, and when good gigs like that are so rare in this economy, people are not in the position to negotiate a later start date to accomodate a student--no matter how much they would like to. Here's the thing--my CFI *CLEARLY* loved instructing, and while she did leave for tours, who can blame her? Who could blame anyone who leaves for such an increasingly rare opportunity?

 

It seems you are equating the CFI to a greedy hour-hog who will pick up and leave the instant they can. I strongly disagree with your 99% figure. I would say that 75% of the instructors at my company love teaching. But of course they are looking for the next big thing--nicer helicopter, more pay, etc. I don't understand the bitterness.

 

Have you also considered that CFIs make next to nothing, and that even those most dedicated to instruction, and who would otherwise strive to be a career CFI, simply can't, due to pay?

 

Just my two cents.

 

Its not my intention to come across as bitter, or that I hate instructing/instructors. Although I strongly believe that an instructor should at least finish the rating they started before leaving.

 

It just seems to be in bad taste to leave in the middle of one contract to start another. Not to mention the added expense to the student when he has to start all over with another instructor (or even find another school when their doors close because the owner finally found that entry-level turbine job less than a week before your checkride and now you have no helicopter)!

 

I don't believe that instructors are greedy hour hogs, but I have seen plenty of them leave as soon as they can (and to be honest I would too if I could)!

 

I just believe in calling instructing what it is, time building, stepping stone, paying your dues, rite of passage, its all the same thing, a means to an end! A lot of instructors love their job, that doesn't mean that given a choice they wouldn't have picked another path, and I'll bet that if we did have a choice most of us would not have picked instruction! However we don't have a choice, its either instruction or starbucks,...and I hear their flight program really sucks!

[Hotdogs]

Honestly, quit being a sally.

 

Your first couple of flights should be flown with the same instructor because he can recognize trends early and smash them. After that, flying with different instructors is a good thing. They pick up on bad trends that the previous instructor might not have caught or cared about and may have different techniques to help you learn a procedure faster or better. I've flown with easily over 50 different instructors (that's being conservative) and each of them challenged or taught me something different every time. You learn the most when you're outside your comfort zone and different instructors have different ways of doing that.

 

Job opportunities only come along every so often and you would've done the same thing if you were in his shoes. As long as you have the time logged and can demonstrate proficiency then you won't "have to start all over"

[Pohi]

I hear what you are saying eagle5. Perhaps before I instructed, I might have wanted a pipeline job, but in hindsight I think it would have been extremely boring and I would not have had the years of by the book flying and studying that really helps reinforce good piloting.

 

Although I studied my butt off during training, there was a complete night and day difference in both flying and understanding between when I got my CFI and when I finished instructing. I could be the exception, but I am greatful for being able to instruct because I feel I am a better pilot because of it.

 

When I was instructing, I gave 100% on and off the clock to my students. The job might have been a means to an end, but there is an obvious difference between instructors that are more focused on where they want to be than those who focus on where they are.

 

As far as finishing a students rating before the instructor leaves, I agree with what was posted already. The instructor rarely has a choice on when they start. It's either they go, or the chief pilot calls one of the other equally qualified applicants in the huge pile on their desk.

 

Like I said though, I do understand your frustration. One of my instructors left the flight right before my first solo. I then had to wait a week to get another instructor and then fly with them so I could get endorsed again for solo. That didn't exactly fill me with warm and fuzzies.

 

Even though the timing was crappy, I was still happy for my instructor and bought him a few beers to celebrate his getting his next job.

Edited June 17, 2012 by Pohi

[eagle5]

Alright, it seems I'm in the minority here with my position, therefore I conceed!

 

99% of you became instructors because it was the job you wanted to do, and not because it was the only job available! And apparently not only is common practice for an instructor to bail on their students for a better job (even two weeks before your ppl checkride) it is expected and accepted with no harsh feelings. Therefore I will no longer harbour any ill will towards my former cfi!

 

Can't win 'em all!

[nightsta1ker]

Alright, it seems I'm in the minority here with my position, therefore I conceed!

 

99% of you became instructors because it was the job you wanted to do, and not because it was the only job available! And apparently not only is common practice for an instructor to bail on their students for a better job (even two weeks before your ppl checkride) it is expected and accepted with no harsh feelings. Therefore I will no longer harbour any ill will towards my former cfi!

 

Can't win 'em all!

 

I've certainly swallowed my size twelves a few times myself. No worries man. We are all entitled to an opinion. I have certainly had my share of negative flight training experiences. I just feel that most students that don't make it didn't give it 100% either. You have to meet the instructor half way, and sometimes that means letting them go when they get the opportunity to move on to better things.

 

Think about it this way. Your an instructor at a busy school and at any given time, you have 5-10 students at different stages. You get a job offer. This is a one time deal and passing on it may mean you never get it offered to you again. You have a student who is nearing a solo or a checkride, and you hate to leave them where they are, but if you turn down the job to finish them up, you may not get a shot at it later. What do you do?

 

Put yourself in their shoes.

[Spike]

Becoming a CFI isn’t the job I wanted to do. It’s the job I knew I had to do to become a better pilot in order to advance. I’m sure some folks would like to skip training and move right into a turbine as well. However, you can’t get a commercial without a private. You can’t get a CFI without a commercial. So on and so forth…. This is the way it is, and been so for quite some time. And, there are plenty of crappy flying jobs out here. When you’ve worked a few, then you'll understand how teaching is cake….

 

The current system in place for advancement includes teaching. You can agree or disagree or try to it by some other method but the results are clear. Teaching begets a future, quicker…..

 

Furthermore, during initial training, everything from the CFI who teaches you to the machine you fly is completely up to you. If the instructor bails and the school closes and bugs out with your cash, while indeed criminal, it boils down that YOU didn’t choose the right school to attend. This is why it’s so important to do the research and choose the right school……..

Edited June 18, 2012 by Spike