Pohi Posted July 16, 2012 Posted July 16, 2012 I suppose integrity is a great thing to have, but when you go on month after month seeing other pilots get jobs just because they have a few more hours than you, or because they just happened to be in the right place at the right time and you weren't, well...integrity won't feed your family! Just how desperate could you get? Just another thought, but when making statements such as this (and not in jest), one should take care to protect their secret identity more than Superman did with Clark Kent :-) If I was an employer and knew of a person who said things like that, I wouldn't even take the time to check their logbook to see if they were honest or not. I would file that resume in the circular bin at my feet and move on to one of the other resumes on my desk. 3
diverturnedpilot Posted July 16, 2012 Posted July 16, 2012 When I was in company training for my first "real" professional helicopter pilot job (offshore GOM) there were 4 of us in the hiring class. After a few days of classroom and flying they let go one of the other pilots stating that there was no way he had the amount of experience that he had claimed. It was not his piloting skills. It was his decision making that got him fired. Employers don't want experienced pilots because they fly great, anyone can fly a helicopter. They pay you for what you know and your decision making process. 3
nightsta1ker Posted July 16, 2012 Author Posted July 16, 2012 Just another thought, but when making statements such as this (and not in jest), one should take care to protect their secret identity more than Superman did with Clark Kent :-) If I was an employer and knew of a person who said things like that, I wouldn't even take the time to check their logbook to see if they were honest or not. I would file that resume in the circular bin at my feet and move on to one of the other resumes on my desk. I was having thoughts very similar to this myself.
aeroscout Posted July 16, 2012 Posted July 16, 2012 My current employer said they have had interviewees who claimed a lot of turbine time. Then when they go on the interview flight, they can't find the starter button, and it's the same model they claim they have so much time in. At some point a lie will catch up to you, often when you lest expect it. Look at it from a practical standpoint if you can't see the moral perspective. This is not to say you shouldn't take every advantage of what the rules allow, which brings up a question. What if you have to start up, lift, or taxi, get a delay on the ground of an hour, and end up with 1 hour of airborne time, how much time can you legally log ?
Pohi Posted July 16, 2012 Posted July 16, 2012 The way I understand it, is you can log while acting as pic. Or to put it another way, if you can loose your certificate or be blamed for an accident (as in blades spinning) you can log it. That being said, my company logs flight hours, that being only when in the air. Which is unfortunate for me because I spend a LOT of time spinning on the ground. A friend works for a company that logs as soon as the starter is pushed, no matter if the helicopter is on the ground or in the air.
jimbo2181 Posted July 16, 2012 Posted July 16, 2012 FAR 1.1 Flight time means: (1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing; or (2) For a glider without self-launch capability, pilot time that commences when the glider is towed for the purpose of flight and ends when the glider comes to rest after landing. Still open for interpretation for the lawyers but I would say the blades are part of the aircraft and them moving under its own power would be a qualification for flight time. My company automatically logs flight time as skid up to skids down and I'm in a position where I don't care how many hours I am logging. That being said my personal opinion is if my certificate is on the line I should be able to log that time. If someone walks into the rotor while idling you better bet the FAA will be talking to me.
eagle5 Posted July 17, 2012 Posted July 17, 2012 I'm not saying its ok to lie to get a job, I'm just saying that I understand what could motivate a person to do it. I guess we need some boatpix cfis here. Since they somehow are able to log PIC time while taking pictures from a helicopter, while the other guy does the flying!? I'd like to know how that's better than "fudging"?
nightsta1ker Posted July 17, 2012 Author Posted July 17, 2012 I guess we need some boatpix cfis here. Since they somehow are able to log PIC time while taking pictures from a helicopter, while the other guy does the flying!? I'd like to know how that's better than "fudging"? One of many reasons why I hate boatpix. That being said my personal opinion is if my certificate is on the line I should be able to log that time. If someone walks into the rotor while idling you better bet the FAA will be talking to me. IMO if the rotor blades are turning you are flying the aircraft and that's loggable. That regulation you quoted is meant for fixed wing aircraft. However, company policies vary...
Flying Pig Posted July 17, 2012 Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) Eagle5I guess we need some boatpix cfis here. Since they somehow are able to log PIC time while taking pictures from a helicopter, while the other guy does the flying!? I'd like to know how that's better than "fudging"? Other than the fact that they ARE CFI's, they ARE flying, and they ARE ultimately the pilot responsible for the aircraft. A little different than logging an 8 hour Xctry you never flew.I can understand what makes people do a lot of bad things. Ive arrested mothers shoplifting infant tylenol and baby formula. I understand exactly why they did it. Although an extreme example. As far as calling out some other CFI who logs the time with another company, thats not necessary. Get a job with them and log it because its legit time. I log CFI time while I let my partners fly who are non-pilots. We do 6 hrs a day in a 10hr shift. When nothings going on, I let them fly it around. Im really not doing much. Heck, in fact Im looking out the window. But Im still the guy responsible for that aircraft, and they log the dual. There are people in this world who can lie, stretch the truth and generally be dishonest and nothing really ever comes of their decisions.Then there are people, because of the operating environment and responsibilities need to be trusted absolutely without hesitation and need to have a proven track record of honesty. Or at least no track record of DIShonesty. There are professions where people dont have the time or the luxury second guess, wonder "what if" or verify your information. They have to take the information and act on it. The problem with people, one of which I new of personally, who pad serious time, is that they lied about the time to get their jobs. Within a couple of years, they really are qualified. Because now they have 1500hrs of REAL time beyond their lie so nobody ever finds out. Thats not someone I want to work for because I will guarantee, that is going to be the boss who will SLAM me for an honest operational mistake. I swear, if my 8 years in the military and my 15years as a cop have taught me anything its that the people with the biggest skeletons in their closet are the first ones who will attack someone for an honest mistake. Edited July 17, 2012 by Flying Pig 3
rotormandan Posted July 17, 2012 Posted July 17, 2012 The company doesn't dictate how you fill in your logbook. That's all on you. That's why it's your integrity on the line. Not any of the previous employers logging policies.
eagle5 Posted July 17, 2012 Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) Given the utter disgust you all have for someone who would lie to get a job (or even someone who can empathize with them for that matter), I'm courious; There's a guy you know, a fellow pilot. You've known him for 20+ years. He's a great guy, you've flown with him many times and find him to be an excellent pilot, knowledgeable, safe, helpful to others (he even mentors some lower time guys). He's your best friend, so awesome in fact that you once intoduced him to your sister, and now they've been married for over ten years! One day you find out that 25 years ago he fudged his logbook to get a job. He says he'd been looking for work for 3 years. Down in the dumps and ready to give up, a job came up that he was 20hrs shy of, so he lied to get an interview, and got hired. How do you feel about him now? Edited July 17, 2012 by eagle5
Flying Pig Posted July 17, 2012 Posted July 17, 2012 Really? We're gonna play that game now? No thanks
Trans Lift Posted July 17, 2012 Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) I saw an S76 fly overhead the other day. I logged the time while it was in sight, only as SIC though! Would this be frowned upon? I was told to fly what you can and log what you need!!! Edited July 17, 2012 by Trans Lift
jimbo2181 Posted July 17, 2012 Posted July 17, 2012 The company doesn't dictate how you fill in your logbook. That's all on you. That's why it's your integrity on the line. Not any of the previous employers logging policies. When the company's electronic flight records fill in your 135 duty log, yes, yes they do.
nightsta1ker Posted July 17, 2012 Author Posted July 17, 2012 Given the utter disgust you all have for someone who would lie to get a job (or even someone who can empathize with them for that matter), I'm courious; There's a guy you know, a fellow pilot. You've known him for 20+ years. He's a great guy, you've flown with him many times and find him to be an excellent pilot, knowledgeable, safe, helpful to others (he even mentors some lower time guys). He's your best friend, so awesome in fact that you once intoduced him to your sister, and now they've been married for over ten years! One day you find out that 25 years ago he fudged his logbook to get a job. He says he'd been looking for work for 3 years. Down in the dumps and ready to give up, a job came up that he was 20hrs shy of, so he lied to get an interview, and got hired. How do you feel about him now? Really? 20 hours? Did you not read my post earlier? 20 hours is nothing compared to 1000. I would have applied for the job 20 hours shy and said "Give me a shot, I'm not the pilot I will be 20 hours from now, but at least I didn't fudge my logbook to get the interview." 1
eagle5 Posted July 17, 2012 Posted July 17, 2012 Really? 20 hours? Did you not read my post earlier? 20 hours is nothing compared to 1000. I would have applied for the job 20 hours shy and said "Give me a shot, I'm not the pilot I will be 20 hours from now, but at least I didn't fudge my logbook to get the interview." I guess I missed that part? In my experience if you don't meet the minimums they won't even acknowledge your existance! So 20hrs shy may as well be 1000! How could anyone fudge 1000hrs?
aeroscout Posted July 17, 2012 Posted July 17, 2012 I really like this thread. It discusses a topic that comes up a lot, but in a rational way. Unless I missed something, no one has yet used the terms "fat fingering", or pencil whipping". I find both those phrases to be deliciously descriptive.
nightsta1ker Posted July 17, 2012 Author Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) I guess I missed that part? In my experience if you don't meet the minimums they won't even acknowledge your existance! So 20hrs shy may as well be 1000! How could anyone fudge 1000hrs? Another thing to consider here, when talking about the difference between 940 hours and 1000, to meet a posted job requirement... From what I hear, these hour minimums can be hard or soft depending on how many applicants there are, how many pilots need to be hired, and what kind of impression you leave on the hiring party. I've never been in this position, but I'm just imagining here: If a 940 hour applicant has a better attitude and demonstrates more skill and knowledge than a 1000 hour applicant, I'm going to hire the 940 hour applicant despite the lack of 60 hours. This is what I had said earlier that you must have skimmed over. Granted, it's not the most solid point, but this is a highly subjective topic anyway. I formulated this opinion based off of quite a few success stories from pilots who did not meet the posted minimum for the job, but they were relatively close, the hiring party needed a pilot, and they demonstrated that they were at the same level. This does not happen all the time, but it does happen. Conversely, I have seen pilots that exceeded the minimum hour requirements not get hired because they screwed up the interview, incorrectly totaled their logbooks, didn't lower the collective when they got a throttle chop, did not come off as a people person, etc... The hour minimums are more of a guideline. At least, that's the way it seems to me based off of my experience. To answer the second part of your question: I have seen and heard about this scenario more than once. Pilot has 300 hours or so. Pilot goes off to do tours or something for a year, next thing you know they have 2500 hours and just got a job flying aeromedical or offshore. Do the math. How do you acquire 2500 hours in a year? Thats 6.5 hours of flying EVERY SINGLE DAY without a break for 12 months. Physically, it's possible, but I don't know ANYONE in ANY flying job that logs that much time in a year. So, how do they do it? They take some aspirin for the writer's cramp and start filling in pages. What I want to know is how they sleep at night... Edited July 17, 2012 by nightsta1ker 1
nightsta1ker Posted July 17, 2012 Author Posted July 17, 2012 Next question, what are the legal ramifications if you get caught cheating on your logbook? Don't we all sign every page stating that what we put in those pages is true? Isn't that perjury? I don't think that signature means anything by itself (legally speaking), but if the pilots actions ever led to any kind of judicial action and the number of hours the pilot had came into question it would mean that they broke the law.
Pohi Posted July 17, 2012 Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F2/737/737.F2d.545.83-3226.html http://www.oig.dot.gov/library-item/5814 There are a ton of people who get in trouble for falsifying medicals. Maybe because that's much easier to prove Edited July 17, 2012 by Pohi
rotormandan Posted July 17, 2012 Posted July 17, 2012 When the company's electronic flight records fill in your 135 duty log, yes, yes they do. Good point. That requires a little less integrity though but you still log what you want in your book. Those 135 records make it a lot harder to lie (which is good). Our program logs to the minute so i might have been in the air 5 minutes by my companies records but thats 0.1 in my logbook. Over a few years those #'s might be a little off.
jimbo2181 Posted July 17, 2012 Posted July 17, 2012 Good point. That requires a little less integrity though but you still log what you want in your book. Those 135 records make it a lot harder to lie (which is good). Our program logs to the minute so i might have been in the air 5 minutes by my companies records but thats 0.1 in my logbook. Over a few years those #'s might be a little off. I actually changed my logbook to minutes so that it matches the 135 duty logs exactly. No sense in making someone believe you are lying because your records don't match the 135 records. Although 135 makes it more difficult to lie it still disappoints me we even have to worry about it. Edited because of damn autocorrect
Fred0311 Posted July 17, 2012 Posted July 17, 2012 I'm about to start training so I apologize if this is a stupid question with an obvious answer. But has anyone ever heard of an operator fudging and employee's numbers to get a contract or a break on insurance?
nightsta1ker Posted July 17, 2012 Author Posted July 17, 2012 I'm about to start training so I apologize if this is a stupid question with an obvious answer. But has anyone ever heard of an operator fudging and employee's numbers to get a contract or a break on insurance? Haven't heard that one yet, but that wouldn't surprise me either. What I HAVE heard about, and this came as a PM in response to this thread, is a story about a guy who padded a thousand hours or more into his logbook and got a job with a big company. The company was notified that the guy had falsified his logbook and they didn't care. Apparently it was too difficult to prove and they just didn't want to deal with it.
Pohi Posted July 17, 2012 Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) I'm about to start training so I apologize if this is a stupid question with an obvious answer. But has anyone ever heard of an operator fudging and employee's numbers to get a contract or a break on insurance? ... Here you gohttp://www.oig.dot.gov/library-item/5614 Edited July 17, 2012 by Pohi
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