Pohi Posted July 17, 2012 Posted July 17, 2012 I can see your point Wally, but just for the sake of arguement( because I log like you do), there isn't a whole lot of difference between sitting on the ground logging time while pax load/unload and a CFI sitting there while a commercial student does a long xc, or flying for two hours while on autopilot. The pilot is just sitting there, doing nothing but monitoring the situation and being prepared to act. Whether its an engine failure or somebody trying to walk through the tail rotor, or accidentally crack the throttle full open while getting out. The PIC is responsible for what happens. Granted, all flight time is not created equal, some is more valuable than others. I wouldn't count at least a thousand hours of flight instruction where I literally touched no part of the helicopter except the door handle or seat belt as a significant event in my flight experience. I could whittle that category down to maybe 500 hours of defining moments. Just for giggles, I checked on my times today. There was over a 2 hour difference between skids up time and engine time due to loading and unloading PAX. I know of a guy who bid for a contract in the GOM and didn't meet the customer minimums according to the company 135 records. When asked about the time difference in what he said he had and what the 135 records said, he explained he records his time from engine start to engine shut down on his watch and logs that. They said OK, and gave him the contract. So, valuable time or not, time is time, and if it's specific time that a company needs then they will ask.
Pohi Posted July 17, 2012 Posted July 17, 2012 I went back and was totaling up each page in my logbook to make sure the hours were correct. I found out I had incorrectly totaled a few pages and in doing so added approximately 3 hours of flight time. So I to have white out in my logbook, I don't however have a post it note explaining. Maybe I should. My friend did that. Except he had a page stuck together and didn't realize it. The really crappy part is that he was at 980 ish (and the job he wanted had a hard minimum of 1000). The Chief Pilot told him to come as soon as he got his 1000, but he had an accident in that next 20 hours. When he got the 1000, the chief pilot said he couldn't hire him at that time any more because of the accident. He didn't find out until many months later that the pages were stuck together and he had the 1000 hours the whole time.
nightsta1ker Posted July 18, 2012 Author Posted July 18, 2012 My friend did that. Except he had a page stuck together and didn't realize it. The really crappy part is that he was at 980 ish (and the job he wanted had a hard minimum of 1000). The Chief Pilot told him to come as soon as he got his 1000, but he had an accident in that next 20 hours. When he got the 1000, the chief pilot said he couldn't hire him at that time any more because of the accident. He didn't find out until many months later that the pages were stuck together and he had the 1000 hours the whole time. That really sucks.
Pohi Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 Yes it does. It took him another 3 years and 1500 more hours before he could land a turbine gig.
Helipilot PTK Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 My friend did that. Except he had a page stuck together and didn't realize it. The really crappy part is that he was at 980 ish (and the job he wanted had a hard minimum of 1000). The Chief Pilot told him to come as soon as he got his 1000, but he had an accident in that next 20 hours. When he got the 1000, the chief pilot said he couldn't hire him at that time any more because of the accident. He didn't find out until many months later that the pages were stuck together and he had the 1000 hours the whole time. If you don't mind me asking, what type of accident was he in? Pilot error, component failure Etc.
Pohi Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 The accident was the big issue, I believe. As far as the accident itself it was pilot error, he hit wires.
rotormandan Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 Man. That's Murphy's law at it's worst. Murphy is a d!ck. 1
Nearly Retired Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 1) Here's the thing about "fudging" on your flight time. It happens. More than some of you think. You can be disgusted, appalled, horrified, mortified...hell, you can even be sassified* for all I care. It happens. I've seen it done. If you "fudge" on your time to get a job, does that make you a bad person who I'll never be friends with and will throw under the bus at the first opportunity? Well, if I held all my friends/acquaintances to such rigorous standards I wouldn't have any friends. And I'm not so pompous and egotistical as to say that I'm perfect myself. Sometimes I do crummy things that I really regret - maybe not prison-worthy things, but you know...stuff that's "just wrong, man." People are human - they have various faults. These faults generally do not make them bad people or worthy of our hatred. 2) Do potential employers ever check up on whether the flight time is legit? No. Never happen. Do you really think a potential employer is going to call up an operator and ask if Joe Smith flew a .9 in N4477X on such-and-such date? Or ask the operator to go back in the records and come up with a total time that Joe Smith flew in all of the operator's various aircraft? Dream on. If I got that call I'd hang up the phone. And what about *after* they hire you? Now will they check? Nope, because now it would be too difficult to fire your sorry butt. What does it say about their hiring standards and practices? Head in the sand, baby! No employer has EVER asked to see my logbooks. No employer will likely ever ask to see yours. You tell them how much time you have; if the Chief Pilot likes the way you fly, you're golden. But *if* you put some number down on the application and you get hired, and you have an accident...the number on your application better match the number the NTSB comes up with when they check your last flight physical app. If there's a discrepancy there, oh boy! So. Don't lie. Or don't have an accident. 3) I keep my logbook times rounded to the nearest hour. Nobody cares...NOBODY...cares that you have 75.6 hours in a Sikorsky S-300, Mr. Yeager. Just call it 76 hours and be done with it. Nobody cares. Seriously. Oh, one other thing: I don't sign my logbook pages. In fact, I haven't kept one of those cutesy logbooks that you get from Sporty's since I was a Private Pilot. Nothing says we have to use those things. 4) Has anyone ever seen a company fudge a pilot's total time to meet some insurance requirement? Yep, seen that done too. It's really not a great industry that we work in, gang. Not a whole lot of integrity to go around. Get used to that or get out. 5) Pilot flight time. Here we go! The regulations say that aircraft components (like engines, transmissions, blades, etc.) begin accruing flight time when the wheels/skids leave the ground and continues until touchdown. Works the same for airplanes and helicopters. That's component time. Pilot flight time is different. The FAA allows that pilots can begin logging flight time as soon as the aircraft moves under its own power with the intention of flight. Thus, airplane pilots begin logging "flight time" as soon as they leave the parking spot and they don't stop until they're back at the gate or parking spot. Works great if you're in a Cherokee #30 in line for takeoff at Kennedy. This is why most airplanes have two hourmeters. In the helicopter industry, we pilots typically log component time as pilot flight time. Some pilots get all huffy that THIS IS THE WAY IT SHOULD BE DONE, BY GOD! You only log flight time when that aircraft is actually off the ground and who cares how they do it in airplanes. WE'RE HELICOPTER PILOTS, DAMMIT! I beg to differ. Since the main rotor blades are an airframe part (not like a propeller, which is not an airframe part at all), then it follows that when the main rotor blades are turning the aircraft is moving. The fact that the fuselage is not moving across the earth has nothing to do with it. The airframe is moving/the aircraft is moving. Period. End of discussion. Except! (There are always exceptions, eh?) The FAA's legal counsel came out with a bonehead letter (in response to some dipschitt's inquiry) that says just the opposite - that helicopter pilots must log "pilot flight time" as skids-up to skids-down. That settles that, huh? Nope. FAA legal interpretations are open to challenge. I believe that a good lawyer could successfully challenge this interpretation in court. I have one in my family who would happily do it if asked. In fact, if "someone" who was not a lawyer were to approach the Legal Division with the fact that the rotor blades are an airframe part - something of which those lawyers were obviously unaware - I believe they would reverse their own ruling. So. Where does that leave us? Simple: Log RIM time (rotors in motion) as "pilot flight time." You will find pilots who are vehemently oppposed to such shenanigans. Screw 'em. Blades are turning with the intention of flight (and no, no maintenance run-ups allowed), then I'm logging time. (Actually *I'm* not. At this stage of the game I just go by my ship's Hobbs, which is hooked to the collective. At this point I don't care. I just don't give a sh*t. I'm the honeybadger of flight time loggers. But you log whatever you want.) *It's from an old song by Clarence Carter called "Strokin'." 2
lelebebbel Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 Do potential employers ever check up on whether the flight time is legit? No. Never happen. Do you really think a potential employer is going to call up an operator and ask if Joe Smith flew a .9 in N4477X on such-and-such date? Or ask the operator to go back in the records and come up with a total time that Joe Smith flew in all of the operator's various aircraft? Dream on. If I got that call I'd hang up the phone. And what about *after* they hire you? Now will they check? Nope, because now it would be too difficult to fire your sorry butt. What does it say about their hiring standards and practices? Head in the sand, baby! No employer has EVER asked to see my logbooks. No employer will likely ever ask to see yours. Well - my experience is a little different. My current employer did call my very first one and asked whether the ~1,000hrs I had left there with where realistic. The approximate total time someone has flown during their employment is something that most employers should be able to provide without too much trouble if they are willing to do so. My logbooks (from 0 to current) have also been audited by the civil aviation authority here (CASA, Australia), and on a different occasion I've had to provide copies of the last 6 pages to apply for an approval.CASA will compare logbooks to aircraft records to flight+duty time records during company audits or when investigating an incident. I am currently in Australia, where the rules regarding logbooks are a little more strict (all flights MUST be entered in a logbook, and the logbook has to be signed), but I am sure as hell glad that I always kept my FAA logbooks tidy and accurate, because it would've already come back to bite me if I hadn't.
Nearly Retired Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 Well you know, lelebebbel, I had not considered other countries than the U.S. when I posted that. Typical American, thinking we rule the world :-/ Sorry. I stand corrected. And truthfully, as we move forward in our ever-litigious world, I suspect that more and more employers will be doing more checking-up. Finally, I seriously doubt a potential employer would call and ask a person's previous employer to verify flight time unless "something" raised a red flag. We who have been in this business for a while can spot...let's say "anomalies" that make us scratch our head. So if I were seriously looking at a pilot and one of these flags popped up, I might be inclined to make the phone call and ask some questions. But I'll tell you, with the number of applicants there are out there, I'd probably be more inclined to toss that pilot aside and move on to the next guy. Quick story: (And those of you who know me know that there is no such thing). Last year when I quit my job I put an ad online for pilots. One resume I got was from a young guy with 206/407 experience. Looked impressive! Until... Until I did a little basic math. The kid would have had to fly some number...3 or 4 hours, EVERY DAY of his employment, on EVERY JOB, in EVERY AIRCRAFT that operator owned for his time to add up. He hadn't been at the company long enough to accrue that much flight time. Pass! So it's not so easy to "fudge" flight time. Employers are not stupid.
Flying Pig Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 (edited) 3) I keep my logbook times rounded to the nearest hour. Nobody cares...NOBODY...cares that you have 75.6 hours in a Sikorsky S-300, Mr. Yeager. Just call it 76 hours and be done with it. Nobody cares. Seriously. Oh, one other thing: I don't sign my logbook pages. In fact, I haven't kept one of those cutesy logbooks that you get from Sporty's since I was a Private Pilot. Nothing says we have to use those things. What type of work did you newly retire from? So since you did your private youve never done a BFR? Added a rating? Logged your 6 approaches? Manitained a logbook to document currency? I take it your not an instructor? Or if you are, how did you maintain record of your students? Or did you work for someone who maintained all of your records for you. Ive known military pilots who have never maintained a log book because its all taken care of I guess. Then on the other side of the lake, you have my partner who just retired who flew for 47 years and had about 27,000hrs and had ever log book dating back to the mid-60s when he had his first lesson in a Bell 47. Sure nothing says you need to sign your pages until something happens. Its just about attention to detail I think. Does it make you a better pilot? No, definitly not. I just never got the mind set of pilots who never logged their times. Personal preference I guess. You start off saying you havnt logged anything since your private then spend the rest of the post explaining what and how you log? Edited July 18, 2012 by Flying Pig
nightsta1ker Posted July 18, 2012 Author Posted July 18, 2012 Logging time is not a requirement except for currency and to meet rating requirements. Once you have your ratings, all you NEED to log is your 90 day currency for passengers, and your BFRs. However, any pilot trying to get a job had better be keeping an (at least somewhat) accurate record of their time. I have heard about pilots not getting jobs simply because they had incorrectly totaled their pages, not signed pages, etc. So Nearly Retired's opinion that logging flight time is not a big deal is probably not a good attitude to emulate. Obviously, the times are changing. What worked for him is not going to work for the rest of us. I do agree with some of his other points though.
Nearly Retired Posted July 19, 2012 Posted July 19, 2012 Anyone who flies for a living has to keep track of flight time if for no other reason than your FAA medical app, and/or the annual insurance forms we're all required to fill out. The manifest I fill out for company flights provides my proof of currency. "BFR's" are easy, the school that does mine gives me a sticker. In fact, all of my recent checkrides or flight reviews have come on stickers. Training for advanced ratings and stuff are usually recorded on a master training list that the flight school keeps anyway. Flying Pig, I never said I didn't keep track of my flight time- only that I don't maintain one of those cute little leather-bound ones with all the columns and stuff that some pilots seem so anal about keeping up. I ditched those as soon as I could. Perhaps some employers looking to hire a real entry-level, low-time pilot would scrutinize that person's logbook, but once you reach the level of an experienced professional, nobody is going to want to see it. And in the U.S. there is no requirement that we dutifully sign the bottom of our logbook pages to attest that the above is true and correct.
nightsta1ker Posted July 19, 2012 Author Posted July 19, 2012 And in the U.S. there is no requirement that we dutifully sign the bottom of our logbook pages to attest that the above is true and correct. I never said it was required. I said that people I know have failed the interview because of that or other minor logbook issues. I believe the logic behind this is that if you cannot keep your own papers in good order, how are you going to treat the company stuff? Good points on the rest of it, though I thought it went without saying that most of the logbook "fudging" that has been discussed was to get that first turbine job. The rest, as you say, is easy (as long as you don't screw up).
Flying Pig Posted July 19, 2012 Posted July 19, 2012 To each his own I guess. Ive flown with, and fly with extremely high time pilots with 10,000+hrs, several thousand NVG, Mountain, Long Line, and everyone of them still maintains a "cute" logbook. I guess its a matter of which way you chose to go. Im only at about 2,300 but I still enjoy logging at the end of each day. After 15 years as a cop maybe I just like paperwork
Nearly Retired Posted July 19, 2012 Posted July 19, 2012 "Every" one of them? Be careful when making declarative statements like that. Because as one of those 10,000+ hour pilots, I don't. And many of my peers do not keep "traditional" logbooks anymore. I won't go as far as to say "none" of them, but I know "some" pilots like me who do not. But hey, maybe you know more "10,000+ hour" pilots than I do. And yes, you probably do like paperwork. I do not.
rotormandan Posted July 19, 2012 Posted July 19, 2012 I think he ment everyone of the 10,000 + hour pilots he flys with. 1
CharyouTree Posted July 19, 2012 Posted July 19, 2012 I kept one of those "cutesie" books for awhile, but transitioned to an excel spreadsheet (likely one that was posted here) just because it's SO much easier. Realistically I'm only keeping track to make sure what I'm flying is what's getting logged in my records, at least until I get out of the military. Lets me keep track of my own PC time, IP time, etc. As a personal preference, I also throw a note in if anything significant happened, or if it was part of my annual requirements, and not something I often do. Spreadsheet is set up much like a regular logbook, but I was obviously able to customize my headers, and it gives me a total of all my time, and can even break it down by aircraft and device. 1
Spike Posted July 20, 2012 Posted July 20, 2012 (edited) Hopefully this link (re)post from the Antique Examiner on the JH Alternate Forum from a few years ago clears up some of the "loggable flight time" questions. http://www.justhelicopters.com/COMMUNITY/JHFORUMS/JHAlternateForum/tabid/180/forumid/1/tpage/1/view/topic/postid/15891/Default.aspx#363 Edited July 20, 2012 by Spike 1
CharyouTree Posted July 20, 2012 Posted July 20, 2012 In the Army, I start logging from the time I lift off (ground taxiing doesn't count) until the engines are shut down. Am I to understand from that link, Spike, that using the "collective up, to collective down" method of logging... you would have times where you were sitting on the ground, maybe talking to a student, that wouldn't technically count as loggable time? (Apologies if I'm coming across wrong...I genuinely find that concept...interesting/confusing.)
nightsta1ker Posted July 20, 2012 Author Posted July 20, 2012 Based off of the information that has surfaced in this thread I am currently working with my CP on a plan to change our company policy. Unfortunately it is going to increase the cost of training for our students, but in the end, I think they will get more out of their actual logged time considering that approximately 8 minutes of their flight is spent sitting on the ground. Thanks for posting on this everyone. Lots of good information here.
Nearly Retired Posted July 20, 2012 Posted July 20, 2012 One thing I've learned in my short life on this planet is that everything is arguable these days. Everything. It's become part of our culture. Police bag your for speeding? Contest it! You don't like a court ruling? Appeal it! Even decisions by the U.S. Supreme Court are not respected. Nothing is considered The Last Word. Obamacare, for example. It's been ratified by all three branches of the government, yet it may be repealed or reversed or overturned with the next presidency (if it's not Obama or Romney). So some schmucks in the FAA's Legal Department make a ruling that helicopter pilots must log "pilot flight time" as skids-up to skids-down...UNLESS that helicopter has wheels, in which case they can log that time from the moment it begins taxiiing for takeoff like airplane pilots do. This is so inconsistent it's not even funny. In my post #84 you'll see that I make a pretty clear case that we helicopter pilots should be able to log rotors-in-motion time as pilot flight time. There is no trickery or subterfuge involved. As I say, I believe that if the airframe is moving, the aircraft is moving. And when the rotors are moving, the airframe is moving. Why some pilots fail to see this, or find it humorous is puzzling. You'd think people would be more intelligent than that. Whatever... Now, what happens in flight instruction in the real world? Hobbsmeters are not required to be installed in aircraft- there only must be a "reliable" method of recording flight time. Many older helicopters (e.g. Bell 47's, Hiller 12's) do not have Hobbs. In aircraft that do not have them the pilots note their "off-time" on a piece of paper. When they get back from the instruction period they note their "on-time. The difference is the flight time. Did some of that time get spent on the ground between maneuvers? Certainly. Has the FAA ever made an issue of this? No. And the only way they will is if people constantly bring it their attention that there's this HUGE DISCREPANCY of about a .1 or a .2 between pilot flight time and component time for each flight. In fixed-wing aircraft, it is accepted and assumed that "pilot flight time" and "aircraft component time" will not be equal. The FAA knows this; it is a normal situation. But yet people FREAK OUT if the same happens in a helicopter. OH MY GOD!!! But you know what? The FAA really doesn't care. Until you poke them. And then some lawyers who may know nothing about helicopters but a lot about rules and regulations make some silly judgment and we take it all as gospel that's carved in stone like the (fictitious) Ten Commandments. Me, I say it's arguable. Who's to say it isn't?
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