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Another Upper Limit Crash today


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Seems the pilot and student are ok with only minor bumps and bruises, after what sounds like a practice auto that went bad. Other sources outside of this news report state that it was a practice 180 auto and was believed to be due to a late flaire. Glad everyone's ok however this is crash number 7 in 6 years.

 

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=21279323&nid=148&title=helicopter-crashes-in-woods-cross&s_cid=queue-5

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I've never heard of a flight school doing 180 full down autos (but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen). Usually full downs (in my exerience) are straight ins, usually restricted to only a hand full of flights during training, and then only with CFI or commercial rated students.

 

I hear in the military you guys do a lot more full downs than civilian flight schools.

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I have done a bunch of full down autos, straight in and plenty of 180 autos too. The first 4 weeks of the Kiowa course is pretty much 10 autos a day plus some hydraulics off run on landings. Let alone all the autos in Primary.

 

Anyway, it's good these two guys walked away.

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I've never heard of a flight school doing 180 full down autos (but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen). Usually full downs (in my exerience) are straight ins, usually restricted to only a hand full of flights during training, and then only with CFI or commercial rated students.

 

I hear in the military you guys do a lot more full downs than civilian flight schools.

 

Several a day in flight school. I guess the Army's theory is you have to master the EP's to be qualified so that's pretty much all of primary. I remember my first flight we took off and headed to a stage field and I've had the controls for about 2 minutes and I'm trying to figure out how to fly an airspeed and altitude and all that and the IP rolls the throttle off for a simulated engine failure. By the end of primary I felt like I didn't know how to fly the aircraft if all the systems were actually working.

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Well its good they both walked away. This sh*t is dangerous.

 

Do robbie guys do 180s to a run on or minimal ground run?

 

I did probably a hundred straight in and 180 full down autorotations in an R22 when I was doing my CFI training. There were only two instructors that were authorized to teach them though, the chief pilot, and another very high time instructor.

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The US Army doesnt do full down autos unless its with a dac pilot.

 

You sure, I don't think so. The Army doesn't allow full down Auto's in dual engine aircraft, since there are only 58's and little birds that are single engine now that's most everyone but I know little bird guys did them, I think 58's do too but I'm not sure. In flight school it's actually a civilian contractor teaching the auto's and either Army or DAC's doing check rides for the first part in a TH-67.

 

As for the dual engine restriction I think it has to do with the 2500-3000FPM rate of decent, at least in a UH-60. As I recall the rate of decent in a TH-67 (Bell 206) was 1000-1500FPM.

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I know the 1/160 guys do full downs but they have their own training routine that is totally separate from the rest of Army Aviation. We have Kiowas here on JBLM but I NEVER see them do full downs. Only power recovery autos. That doesn't mean they don't do them, but I never see it if they do.

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I've never heard of a flight school doing 180 full down autos (but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen). Usually full downs (in my exerience) are straight ins, usually restricted to only a hand full of flights during training, and then only with CFI or commercial rated students.

 

In my opinion,

 

Yet again, another indication that some flight schools are shortchanging their students… Sorry to say…

 

Usually the progression goes, power recovery straight-in’s to proficiency are the nexus to power recovery 180’s. Power recovery 180”s to proficiency is the nexus to 180 full-downs, regardless of where the student is at in the program…. That is, if a private applicant demonstrates proficiency all the way through to power recovery 180’s, there should be no reason not to advance the training to full-downs……

Edited by Spike
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I know the 1/160 guys do full downs but they have their own training routine that is totally separate from the rest of Army Aviation. We have Kiowas here on JBLM but I NEVER see them do full downs. Only power recovery autos. That doesn't mean they don't do them, but I never see it if they do.

 

The 58D wont do full down autos in FMC config. So if they want to do them they have to take the MMS off, etc. That is a PITA from what I have been told, so we do all our full down training in flight school.

 

The rate of decent in the 58D is 2100-2400fpm in an autorotation. Look between the pedals and that is your landing area :D

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As some of the other posters have said most civilian flight schools only do full downs with CFI students and usually only have 1 instructor that is authorized to do the training.

 

I don't think they are trying to short change the student, just keep the accidents down. There is a huge learning curve between private pilot and CFI.

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I did full downs before I soloed. But this has already been discussed in this thread: http://helicopterforum.verticalreference.com/topic/15501-practice-ftdas/

 

I think a lot of it depends on the type of ship. Full downs in the 300 are a lot more forgiving than they are in the R22. Personally, I don't feel comfortable TEACHING them in either type yet.

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DACs, green suiters, or the URS IPs teach full down autorotations in Primary for the military. They demonstrate low level full down autos in the OH-58AC for the basic warfare course, but students it isn't a graded maneuver. Mostly they do it so the student has a warm fuzzy that the IP will get them down in an emergency.

 

Today was my first autorotation in the 64. We were pretty light on fuel, so the descent rate was only about 2000FPM. It actually wasn't that bad. Power recovery to a 30 foot hover or so. But no full downs in the dual engine aircraft is correct.

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The 58D wont do full down autos in FMC config. So if they want to do them they have to take the MMS off, etc. That is a PITA from what I have been told, so we do all our full down training in flight school.

 

The rate of decent in the 58D is 2100-2400fpm in an autorotation. Look between the pedals and that is your landing area :D

I stand corrected. I've heard people talk about them in 58's and I just figured it was part of their normal EP's. I would say that in a single engine bird I would want to feel comfortable in my ability to execute a full touchdown auto.

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You sure, I don't think so. The Army doesn't allow full down Auto's in dual engine aircraft, since there are only 58's and little birds that are single engine now that's most everyone but I know little bird guys did them, I think 58's do too but I'm not sure. In flight school it's actually a civilian contractor teaching the auto's and either Army or DAC's doing check rides for the first part in a TH-67.

 

As for the dual engine restriction I think it has to do with the 2500-3000FPM rate of decent, at least in a UH-60. As I recall the rate of decent in a TH-67 (Bell 206) was 1000-1500FPM.

 

My apologies, with my experience as a blackhawks crew cheif in the us army, we never did full down autos.

 

The task force is the same way.

 

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I don't think they are trying to short change the student, just keep the accidents down. There is a huge learning curve between private pilot and CFI.

 

In my opinion,

 

Making mistakes IS a part of learning. Accidents, while unfortunate, will happen in the training environment. Any flight school owner who operates in fear of an accident shouldn’t be in the training business…..

 

Reread the post. “I've never heard of a flight school doing 180 full down autos (but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen). Usually full downs (in my exerience) are straight ins,” . To me this reads inexperience and fear…..

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I have heard military operators don't train for full downs just because they don't want to put any more stress on the airframe and parts than they have to. My buddy's dad flew H-3's in the Navy for 30 years and they never did full downs (except for training in the Jet Ranger and the Huey). However I think full downs and 180 full downs should be an integral part of your training. After learning full downs, I think power recoveries are harder.

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To me this reads inexperience and fear…..

 

Agree 100%

 

From a new student's perspective, I posted my anguish and frustration at the seemingly unwillingness of CFI's to teach EP's in general. That includes a CFI with 1000 hrs!

I can't be easy teaching, especially EP's, I get that, but how else are we supposed to learn?

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I stand corrected. I've heard people talk about them in 58's and I just figured it was part of their normal EP's. I would say that in a single engine bird I would want to feel comfortable in my ability to execute a full touchdown auto.

 

You were correct in stating we do full down autos. Now mind you, most are done at Fort Rucker, but they are still done in Kiowas. Flying a single engine helicopter makes one appreciate the nuances of a good autorotation. B)

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I have heard military operators don't train for full downs just because they don't want to put any more stress on the airframe and parts than they have to. My buddy's dad flew H-3's in the Navy for 30 years and they never did full downs (except for training in the Jet Ranger and the Huey). However I think full downs and 180 full downs should be an integral part of your training. After learning full downs, I think power recoveries are harder.

 

I really think it just has to do with the chances of successfully landing one. In the sim a real good instructor might land 4 out of five without getting the red screen of death in a 60. The rate of decent is so high that any small mistake is a crash. In the 206 I could've messed up real bad and still just touched down at a very survivable 500FPM. In something heavier, that may be your best case scenario. Power recoveries are kind of a watered down version but I just can't see full touchdowns being viable in every airframe.

 

While a dual engine failure is extremely low (as far as I know it's never happened in a 60), autorotation is required for a loss of TR thrust so wish there was a way to practice them more. It actually tells me I may be able to fly around above 80KIAS and to fly until I find a place to autorotate into. Not sure why I wouldn't just fly into a runway above 80KIAS, but that's a different story.

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