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How do you log R22 time?


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I log flight time according to the hobbs, therefore my R22 time is engine on to engine off, but my R44 time is skids up to skids down! Which method is correct,...depends on who you're asking!

 

This is why what I'm advocating is that the FAA simply add a more clear definition for helicopter pilots,...didn't think that was too much to ask?

 

Jeez, man. Where in the FARs does it mention HOBBS?

 

If you want the right answer, consult the FARs. If you want opinion, ask anyone here. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

 

I'm really starting to feel bad for this horse carcass.

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Jeez, man. Where in the FARs does it mention HOBBS?

 

If you want the right answer, consult the FARs. If you want opinion, ask anyone here. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

 

I'm really starting to feel bad for this horse carcass.

 

 

I don't know what aircraft you were trained in, but like so many others, I trained in the R22. I have flown with many, many, cfis, from several different schools, all of them do it the same way,...log from the hobbs. Now it seems we've ALL been doing it wrong for countless years!

 

I wonder, just how many pilots out there have to subtract a .1 from every R22 flight they've ever done, simply because someone, somewhere, started teaching pilots to log from the hobbs, and it has spread uncontrollably like a pandemic?

 

No, it doesn't say anything in the regs about logging from the hobbs, but why are soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo many of us taught to?

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Citing the number of people that do it, doesn't make it right. Wanna guess how many people speed on the highway or lie on their taxes?

 

Read this and get back with me. The lawyer asking the question is one of the most respected DPEs in the country. He was asking for the same reason you are so adamant that you are right. It's in black and white. I get it, you don't want it to be that way. But it is.

 

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2007/Lloyd%20Interp.pdf

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An enterprising crafty young ( or even an older) low time helo pilot can log every minute of time rotors are in motion to within a tenth or less, all completely in compliance with the FAR definition of flight time.

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An enterprising crafty young ( or even an older) low time helo pilot can log every minute of time rotors are in motion to within a tenth or less, all completely in compliance with the FAR definition of flight time.

 

I have to ask, how is this?

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Citing the number of people that do it, doesn't make it right. Wanna guess how many people speed on the highway or lie on their taxes?

 

Read this and get back with me. The lawyer asking the question is one of the most respected DPEs in the country. He was asking for the same reason you are so adamant that you are right. It's in black and white. I get it, you don't want it to be that way. But it is.

 

http://www.faa.gov/a...loyd Interp.pdf

 

You know the thing is, you continually misunderstand what I'm trying to say here! I'm not justifying the logging of startup to shutdown! I'm not advocating logging startup to shutdown (I guess I should have asked the question, "what do you think the FAA definition means?" for the poll).

 

Until that dude started this thread, I had no idea I was "apparently" logging my R22 time incorrectly! I'm just trying to point out, that if you guys are right, then we have an epidemic here, because countless R22 pilots are being taught, and have been taught, to log with the hobbs!

 

I don't want to be accused of fudging my logbook, but how would you feel if you found out that what you were taught was wrong, and now you've just lost 70hrs because of it!?

 

To a high time pilot flying all the time, and making enougfh money to live a desent life, 70hrs probably doesn't mean sh*t! To a starving lowtimer, it means another year as a starving lowtimer!

 

Saying that soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo many of us do it, isn't a justification! Its pointing out that we have a serious problem at flight schools!

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You know the thing is, you continually misunderstand what I'm trying to say here! I'm not justifying the logging of startup to shutdown! I'm not advocating logging startup to shutdown (I guess I should have asked the question, "what do you think the FAA definition means?" for the poll).

 

 

I'm calling BS on this one:

 

and I quote "The logging of flight time begins with engine start-up and ends with engine shut-down, for the intent of flight.

 

If that isn't you advocating it? What is it? That's a massive backstroke you're taking. Phelps would be jealous!

 

You were saying that the masses are doing it. I'm not denying that they are, or even I did. I'm saying it is like speeding on the highway. The cops don't pull you over for doing 2 over. Unless you are in Golden Meadow.

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I'm calling BS on this one:

 

and I quote "The logging of flight time begins with engine start-up and ends with engine shut-down, for the intent of flight.

 

If that isn't you advocating it? What is it? That's a massive backstroke you're taking. Phelps would be jealous!

 

You were saying that the masses are doing it. I'm not denying that they are, or even I did. I'm saying it is like speeding on the highway. The cops don't pull you over for doing 2 over. Unless you are in Golden Meadow.

 

Misunderstand me yet again!

 

That's one of the poll questions, the other one is for skids up to skids down! How convenient that you left that out!

 

If i were advocating startup to shutdown I would be adding a .1 to all my R44 time. I was at a school that did that, but I don't! As I've said I log bu the hobbs, that's how I was taught!

 

You want to call BS on me that's fine, I couldn't really give a sh*t! I'm tired of trying to get my point across!

 

...and yeah, millions of people speed on the freeway, but they were taught not to! Its like I'm talking to a f*cking brick wall!

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Woah. Cool your jets there killer. No need for that kind of language. If there's one thing I've learned on here it's that you are going to get taken apart for your opinions. The only thing that holds up is black and white. If it's not black and white, someone is going to disagree with you (probably vehemently).

 

Just crack a beer and go watch tv or something.

Edited by nightsta1ker
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Just crack a beer and go watch tv or something.

 

Aww, man, I'd love a beer, but I'm still on duty.

 

Although.... I do have an SIC and since I won't be touching the flight controls, I won't be in flight, I'll only be the PIC, I guess I can have one! Cool.

Edited by C of G
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Aww, man, I'd love a beer, but I'm still on duty.

 

Although.... I do have an SIC and since I won't be touching the flight controls, I won't be in flight, I'll only be the PIC, I guess I can have one! Cool.

 

To quote the great late Charles M. Schulz: "Sarcasm does not become you, Ma'am."

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I have to ask, how is this?

 

If your aircraft moves under it's own power for the purposes of flight, you can legitimately log flight time. There is, I believe a misconception about the period between that time, and shutdown. All of that time is legitimately loggable, regardless. Is that enough to use your imagination ? Yesterday I timed myself from start button to climbout, 8 minutes. All checklists followed. Start button to skids off dolly 5 mins. Start button to yaw with weight on skids, less than 2 minutes.

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If your aircraft moves under it's own power for the purposes of flight, you can legitimately log flight time. There is, I believe a misconception about the period between that time, and shutdown. All of that time is legitimately loggable, regardless. Is that enough to use your imagination ? Yesterday I timed myself from start button to climbout, 8 minutes. All checklists followed. Start button to skids off dolly 5 mins. Start button to yaw with weight on skids, less than 2 minutes.

 

 

Yes. Aircraft moved with the intent to fly, sure. All loggable from that point. The shutdown, portion, not loggable, but yeah, if you're quick.

 

That's covered in the Barry Lloyd letter*.

 

Ordinarily this sort of back and forth is academic and fun. You learn a little about regs, intent, previous interpretations and deeper understanding of how the "system" works.

 

 

Regarding common misconceptions:

 

http://en.wikipedia...._misconceptions

 

 

Why any of that stuff is commonly taught wrong? Who knows, but teaching/learning it wrong doesn't make it right. Sorry if that last sentence is too obvious.

 

 

 

*(One could argue that the Barry Lloyd letter says "The regulations in pertinent part define "flight time" as "[p Jilot time that commences when

an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing." 14 C.F.R. § 1.1. As with fixed-wing aircraft, flight time in a helicopter commences the moment that it moves under its own power away from its parking place for the purpose of flight- whether departure is commenced by lifting off or taxiing..." So does a yaw on the ground meet this intnet? I'm not even going there, because the reg says aircraft movement, so I'll leave it.)

Edited by C of G
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There's a lot of arguments about the regulations (which I have found very informative, at least when sources are quoted) and even comparison about speed limits, and being taught right and wrong.

 

Speed Limits change. Sometimes concerned citizens in an area lobby and have a speed limit revised either upwards or downwards. Would there be any benfit to lobbying for A CHANGE in the regulation ?

 

Also, as far as right or wrong ... regulations, particularly those not involved with safety or personal rights aren't morally "good" by their existence. They just are. If a bean counter in my organization declares that I may only make 5 copies, and only on tuesday but I need to make 7 copies on monday for the good of my organization, have I done "Wrong" ?

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There's a lot of arguments about the regulations (which I have found very informative, at least when sources are quoted) and even comparison about speed limits, and being taught right and wrong.

 

Speed Limits change. Sometimes concerned citizens in an area lobby and have a speed limit revised either upwards or downwards. Would there be any benfit to lobbying for A CHANGE in the regulation ?

 

Also, as far as right or wrong ... regulations, particularly those not involved with safety or personal rights aren't morally "good" by their existence. They just are. If a bean counter in my organization declares that I may only make 5 copies, and only on tuesday but I need to make 7 copies on monday for the good of my organization, have I done "Wrong" ?

 

Well put.

 

The speed limit was just a quick analogy to help establish a perspective. And yes, that is the crux of the matter, would there be any benefit to lobby for a change. Assuming you understand the regulation as it is currently written.

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C of G, don't get me wrong. I agree with you 100% in your argument. I directed the "chill out" comment at Pilot# anyways. I just thought your comment about drinking on duty was a sarcastic attempt at humor. Stop being so defensive. You are clearly correct and have the black and white to back you up. I personally disagree with the reg but that does not change the fact that it IS a reg and that if I want to obey the law I need to adhere to it (within at least a reasonable margin). All of your arguments have been spot on and I was simply trying to lighten the mood a bit as this thread seems to be getting a lot more "heated" than it deserves to be.

 

Serious note to everyone: those that stretch the rules to fit their ideas and those that make their own rules are only feeding out more rope for their own noose. If you're lucky, no one will notice or care, but you never know where the FAA can turn up or who might be watching you. All it takes is one ramp check.

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Ha! It was sarcasm. It was a humorous attempt at sarcasm. As was the idea to start a poll to see if it was appreciated. I guess that wasn't picked up on.

 

Anyway, I agree, no sense in getting heated about this stuff. I just like bouncing it back and forth. No panty bunching over here.

Edited by C of G
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In discusing this with a cfi I know, he said that once the blades are turning the aircraft is moving on its own power with the intent of flight, so its loggable.

 

Then I read this from the first page:

 

"As with fixed-wing aircraft, flight time in a

helicopter commences the moment that it moves under its own power away from its parking

place for the purpose of flight"

 

Who was it that added, "away from its parking place"? That's not part of the definition in my FAR/AIM (but it is last years edition).

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To All,

 

I would recommend that any flight time to date that appears on an 8710, a medical form, a company form, an insurance form or other document remains as is. Now, knowing how to make log book entries, from this point forward make them according to the def. & reg. This shows proper intent if questioned which I doubt.

 

Move forward with integrity & honesty and bring the correct method with you and to others.

 

Best Wishes,

 

Be Safe,

 

Mike

Edited by Mikemv
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All it takes is one ramp check.

 

Maybe...

 

I've been "ramped" a couple times and neither of the inspectors asked to see my logbook....

 

However, this back-and-forth banter how you log the time is fun and all but clearly shows a lack of understanding (by most) of when it comes significant. It becomes significant when an accident happens especially when great bodily injury (GBI) or death occurs. Regardless if the pilot survives, the logbooks will be gone through with a fine tooth comb. That is, gone through by the feds and the attorneys. And, if you believe this is small potatoes, you should think again.....

Edited by Spike
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In discusing this with a cfi I know, he said that once the blades are turning the aircraft is moving on its own power with the intent of flight, so its loggable.

 

Then I read this from the first page:

 

"As with fixed-wing aircraft, flight time in a

helicopter commences the moment that it moves under its own power away from its parking

place for the purpose of flight"

 

Who was it that added, "away from its parking place"? That's not part of the definition in my FAR/AIM (but it is last years edition).

 

Some chick named Rebecca MacPherson. But she's just the Assistant Chief Counsel for the Regulations Division. I'd go with some CFI you know's opinion. He's probably got a lot more training on this than some lawyer that works for the FAA in the regulations divsion.

 

To quote a pilot I know:

 

"A rotorblade does not an aircraft make"

- Just some handsome pilot

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I know some people think this topic is a dead horse that has been beaten for the last two laps. But I for one am still enjoying it. I just hope I'm not the last one to beat the dead horse. They never call any of the guys before the last guy dead horse beaters.

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