OH-58 VS. UH-60

[Bobsyouruncle]

This was the second half of my flight on a mission I did a couple weeks ago. We swap duties every day and unfortunately for me it was the other crew's turn for taking patients on the day they had a DoD photographer on the LZ, but this is basically my life for the next several months:

 

 

I've been asked to fly behind Chinooks to help carry cargo/pax, I've been asked to conduct reconnaissance, and I've been asked to use my door gunners to kill a guy who was shooting RPGs at friendly forces. As a Black Hawk pilot I've been able to experience every type of mission that the other airframes accomplish regularly. 47/58/64 pilots can't say the same. And that means they miss out on the most rewarding mission you can possibly do in a helicopter. Nothing comes close to getting a critically wounded soldier off of the battlefield and into a hospital just in time to save his life.

 

Front doors on?

[Hotdogs]

Seems like the same thing to me. In both cases, the bad guy ends up dead and the threat to the friendly forces is eliminated. When it comes to missions where lives are at stake, accomplishing the mission is so rewarding that everything else is overshadowed. I can't imagine shooting someone with rockets and 30mm feels any different than shooting someone with an M-240.

 

I politely disagree. Receiving a 9/5 line from Marines on the ground who's position is about to be over run or is taking heavy fire is not the same as "flying by and shooting the guy with a 240." You could also add in other mission sets here that would make things a little more interesting but even in it's most basic form. You do not do CAS. It's probably not even on a METL for you. You provided support in a pinch situation and it worked out. I don't think well be seeing you guys coordinating fires as a FAC(A), lobbing HF and rolling in off the perch onto a target. There is a big difference (psychological and physically) between the effect of a 20mm and 2.75in than a 240B.

[d10]

Front doors on?

 

Yeah. It makes no difference to me. Dust landings are a bit harder but I can get it done either way. The idea is to just get used to doing them with doors on so it's no different in the winter. Cause there's no way anyone's flying with doors off in the winter here.

[Bobsyouruncle]

You could fly with your eyes closed that way when it's dark you're used to it.

[Rob Lyman]

I saw the thread title and could see the pile-up miles away. It's like a guy who doesn't have a driver's license saying "Ford or Chevy".

 

Which is faster? Which is more reliable? Which has a more exciting mission? Which has a more noble mission? What can lift more? What looks cooler? Which will give you a better chance at getting a job later? Blah blah blah!

 

Decide what is important to you. Then select the aircraft and mission that best suits you. Be prepared to get what ever they give you. No matter what, you'll enjoy what ever you fly. Heck, the moped of Army aviation, the Chinook, is proof that some people think flying a dumpster with a palm tree attached to each end is cool.

 

Flying the Seahawk was cool. I had a Penguin missile and torpedoes that could do way more damage than an Apache loaded to the gills. I never shot a live warhead shot of either of those. Now I fly a flying ambulance and get crap from the former Apache pilots at my unit who also fly the same Medevac aircraft. Go figure. I flew the T-34C in flight school and got to do solo aerobatics. Its faster and more manueverable than any of the helos I've flown. Do I wish I was still flying those? NOPE!

 

Just remember, each deployment is different. Doing an Apache or 58 deployment when there is no shooting may really suck. Likewise on a non-combat air assault or medevac deployment you are doing-ss and trash or hauling around someone who broke their leg playing basketball.

 

As for which airframe is better, both the 58 and the 60 airframe have been modified by civilian and military entities to a great extent to do a lot of missions. I would have to give the win to the 60 airframe as I have seen it do a lot more than the 58. The Army, Navy, Air Force and Coast Guard all use the 60. Its missions include; medevac, air assault, anti-submarine warefare, anti-ship surveillance, targeting & attack, special operations, search and rescue, internal/external loads, drug interdiction, light attack (DAP and Israeli Battle Hawk), fire suppression, law enforcement (Mexico), VIP transport, shipboard ops, etc...

[Wally]

I politely disagree. Receiving a 9/5 line from Marines on the ground who's position is about to be over run or is taking heavy fire is not the same as "flying by and shooting the guy with a 240." You could also add in other mission sets here that would make things a little more interesting but even in it's most basic form. You do not do CAS. It's probably not even on a METL for you. You provided support in a pinch situation and it worked out. I don't think well be seeing you guys coordinating fires as a FAC(A), lobbing HF and rolling in off the perch onto a target. There is a big difference (psychological and physically) between the effect of a 20mm and 2.75in than a 240B.

 

 

It's very personal when you're laying down fire (I had a minigun, a 0.50 and a coupla free 60s) out of a Slick, and I'd guess a 60. From a gunship, it seems kinda technical...

 

And, you deal with people face to face in a transport, all the time: their supplies; the troops; and sometimes the casualties- what you shoot (or your door gunner actually) are not just targets. Not knocking "Guns" or gun drivers. I just didn't much care for what little I did.

 

Scouts are single pilot, yes? It's all you if you're PIC.

Blackhawks are 2-pilot crews, so you have to work as part of a team.

That's the difference I'd see as significant between the two.

[Lindsey]

All Army airframes are 2-pilot crews.

[CharyouTree]

All Army airframes are 2-pilot crews.

 

58 A/C is the last of a dying breed of single pilot aircraft, and only in the Guard/RAID programs. On it's way out to be replaced by the Lakota.

 

 

edit: yes, it's still at Rucker in BWS phase, and they can fly it single pilot if necessary. I think they can even fly NVG single, if necessary ...I meant in the field.

Edited August 17, 2012 by CharyouTree

[akscott60]

The 58D is a single pilot aircraft unless you are performing mission tasks (in the -10) We train to fly single pilot as well. Since half of the time the left seater is inside on the MMS.

Edited August 17, 2012 by akscott60

[Lindsey]

The more you know...

[Bobsyouruncle]

The 58D is a single pilot aircraft unless you are performing mission tasks (in the -10) We train to fly single pilot as well. Since half of the time the left seater is inside on the MMS.

 

Flying with the other guy on the MMS does not make you single pilot. Everybody has tasks that pull one pilot in the aircraft. Everywhere I've seen it was considered high risk so it was almost never done even though you can do it.

[GraphiteBlur]

Bumping this because of the comments being made in the July Board thread.

 

 

For me it came down to duty station and I wanted to go to Europe so 58's were out

 

Is that accurate? How limited is the list of possible duty stations for the 58? Compared to other airframes?

[Lindsey]

I saw a duty frame list over at ArmyOCS.com a year ago but I don't know if its still accurate.

 

Velocity et al, keep firing away about airframes! We should just do it in here so it's easier to find with the search bar.

[electron_si]

I really really really don't like kiowa's but it has nothing to do with the mission. It's all about comfort for me. I wasn't built for a 58, nor did I ever enjoy flying one in flight school. Flying doors off doing recon was cool, but my back was sore, and so were my ankles and knees after every flight. I wasn't comfortable flying the aircraft, so I didn't like the aircraft.

 

I also really enjoy the hawk's mission, in one training flight we went from picking up a sling load, to flying 100' AGL on a low level route to a training area to do confined area landings to doing an ILS approach back into the airfield all in a 2.0 flight. I like the varied role of the 60 and hopefully being able to switch to the medevac unit and conduct live hoist I would say that everything I've wanted to do in a helicopter, i've done in the blackhawk.

[Velocity173]

I saw a duty frame list over at ArmyOCS.com a year ago but I don't know if its still accurate.

 

Velocity et al, keep firing away about airframes! We should just do it in here so it's easier to find with the search bar.

Electron kinda hit on why I chose Hawks. You just can't beat the flexibility of the airframe. During marginal VFR weather nights at Rucker I would demonstrate to the students just how flexible it is. We would usually depart Lowe, hit the stage field for some basic pattern work. Then I would pick up the students route and do terrain flight NAV to simulate a time on target air assault. While there do terrain flight manuvers and EPs. Depart to Cairns at 1,000 ft and call approach for the ILS rwy 6. We'd get cleared to Cairns, flip the goggles up, get about .2 IMC, break out around 3-4 miles then go VFR back to Lowe. Change students and do it over again, only the second time I would go to maybe Florala airport to give the student experience in non-towered airport ops. Plus, I was usually hungry by then and me belly likes da BBQ sandwiches there. During days I'd incorporate the sling load thing into all that until we stopped doing slings in 2007.

 

Then look at what we do on deployment. We fly a bunch of hours on a variety of missions. You could be flying air assault one day and a hot reporter (Lara Logan) the next. You could be circling over head doing C2 with a birds eye view in the biggest op of the year one day and flying Gen Petraeus the next. One day you could be sitting on an LZ offloading pax and with rounds kicking up around your aircraft, to the next night flying Gen McCrystal's last flight in country because the POTUS is getting ready to fire his a$$. You could be sitting on a mountain on two wheels with French snipers jumping out the back one night, to flying one of our fallen comrades on a "Hero Mission" the next. One night youre slinging a HUMVEE trailer, the next night you're doing gunnery with the cockpit doors removed and the CE's M-60 muzzle an arms reach away. You could be doing a simple reenlistment riding in the back of your aircraft or it could be the Chairman of The Joint Chiefs. One day your an OH-60 hovering over a corn field trying to identify a possible AIF (bad guy) to the next day doing a resupply to a mountain LZ that hasn't had hot chow in days. You could have a Army Major (BN Doc) come up to begging for a ride to the hospital because one of his soldiers just got blown up out in town and he wants to see him. You could have a SNCO come up to you with one of his soldiers that just lost his Dad back home and he needs a last minute emergency leave ride to the airport. You jump through hoops and make it happen. You're a Black Hawk PC and you make the impossible seem easy.

 

All these experiences happen for the typical 60 pilot. VIP, MEDEVAC, C2, slings, air assault, gunnery, etc etc. You do it all. Go Black Hawks!

Edited May 17, 2013 by Velocity173

[Velocity173]

Can't believe I forgot the best thing about flying Black Hawks. You get a crap load of coins from VIPs!

[akscott60]

Wanna shoot rockets?

 

:-)

[Velocity173]

Wanna shoot rockets?

 

:-)

160th DAP.

[Velocity173]

Lindsey, have you changed your mind to 60s yet or have we lost you to KW world forever?

[Lindsey]

Lindsey, have you changed your mind to 60s yet or have we lost you to KW world forever?

As of now I'm pretty taken with Kiowas...haha. However, I will keep an open mind in flight school when I get there and fight for that #1 spot on the OML. First step--get selected. Flight phys is still at Rucker.

[Velocity173]

As of now I'm pretty taken with Kiowas...haha. However, I will keep an open mind in flight school when I get there and fight for that #1 spot on the OML. First step--get selected. Flight phys is still at Rucker.

Well I tried. Good luck with the physical. Hopefully they won't lose it like they did mine. That was just one of the many set backs I encountered.

[Lindsey]

Well I tried. Good luck with the physical. Hopefully they won't lose it like they did mine. That was just one of the many set backs I encountered.

It didn't fall on deaf ears!

 

And it's been in a "processing" status for almost 2 weeks.

[d10]

We are great pilots due to power management.

 

I realize this is an old quote, but what would a 58 pilot say is the most technically difficult maneuver they perform? About half of my flight hours are in parts of Afghanistan with a heavy enough helicopter to be within a very slim power margin, anywhere up to a few % above MGW OGE. It made me a better pilot but it was nowhere near the most difficult challenge.

 

Multiship heavy dust landings under zero illum into tight LZs was a much greater test of my skill. Keeping it close enough so that you could pick up patients at a mascal without forcing your medic and litter team to walk over hundreds of feet of difficult terrain in the dark was something that only a handful of our Medevac pilots could pull off. It's also incredibly rewarding to know it's a difficult task that no technology in other airframes makes easier and the stakes are so high. If you can't get it done in your Black Hawk it's not going to get done. So although I realize it's probably difficult to hit a target with any ordinance out of a Kiowa it's not the same thing if an Apache can get it done with a few clicks on a computer screen.

 

So what is it that makes Kiowa pilots so much better?

[Rob1237051]

Funny...As a flight engineer I practiced power management. We're talking about keeping generator output at 204v +- 4, ensuring the standby is under 100 amps before inverters and stabilizing the dc gen at 27 right?

[Velocity173]

I'll say this. If 58s were single pilot only, I would have chosen them in a heart beat. That would be awesome! Have my name on the door and everything.