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This looks safe, right?


Lindsey

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What if it is negative 30 the blizzard that just started in front of you will shut down all traffic on that road and your ex wife is your passenger?

 

Land. Use ex wife like Luke used the tauntaun in Star Wars. Hope you were delivering wine.

 

This all assumes you can't just turn around and go back home of course.

 

In all seriousness if you can't divert to more clear weather then whether or not there is a lodge has no bearing on whether or not you land. You don't make aeronautical decisions pertaining to safety of flight based on creature comforts at the hole you just dug yourself in.

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Am i advocating this sort of flying? Probably not, but we just don't know from a photo what sort of flying it is...

 

 

 

I always like the attittude of we weren't in the cockpit and it was a photo- but good call, who wouldn't want to know if there equipment might be unknowingly participating in unnecessary danger.

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In all seriousness if you can't divert to more clear weather then whether or not there is a lodge has no bearing on whether or not you land. You don't make aeronautical decisions pertaining to safety of flight based on creature comforts at the hole you just dug yourself in.

 

I know that. <_< I just want to hear what everyone would do if it happened to them instead of "They shouldn't have let it happen in the first place". That's always what I hear. But when I hear stories of pilots who were actually there they all say the same thing: "I descended to maintain VMC and followed the road/rails/powerlines until I got clear". It's a fatal trap. But so tempting when you are faced with it. IIMC HAPPENS. Weather can be sneaky and misleading and sometimes you can't tell the difference between a perfectly flyable crappy day and one so crappy you really should have stayed in the hangar until it's too late. Even experienced instrument rated pilots with fully IFR capable ships go for 'sucker holes' and wind up burning it in. It happens all the time.

 

To quote one of my pilots in Iraq: "I prefer not to label them as 'sucker holes', I like to call them 'opportunity holes'!"

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Well, if the caption is accurate then this is some questionable ADM.

 

Regardless, perspective is not playing tricks, this guy is very low. Over HWY2 @ 100' AGL at most...does that count as endangering persons or property?

 

With that said, this is the top of the pass and it's possible it was an isolated cloud patch and that he wasn't at low vis for very long. He also could have been very familiar with the territory. My point is simple - it's easy to condemn the pilot given the image, but there could also be more to it so who knows....my stance given what I know to be true is neutral.

 

Would be interesting to hear the pilot's side of the story....

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Even if there is no lodge, there is still a clearing to set down in. If there was a nagging wife in the back yelling... tell her to fly the ship so I can have a chance to kiss my @ss good bye. (at least that would stop the nagging long enough to concentrate on an approach to the clearing/parking lot.) ;)

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It's often easy to look at a picture and make a snap judgment that the pilot was doing something unsafe. The photo in post #1 in this thread does look quite damning. However, upon reading the text, we find out that the location is at the top of Steven's Pass, along Highway 2 in Washington State here in the U.S. While the weather there does look bad, the terrain drops away as you continue westbound, which is the way the R-44 is heading. I'm certain that the R-44 pilot quickly found himself in improving conditions and continued on his way.

 

The helicopter is perhaps one of the cherry-dryers from Chelan headed over to the Seattle area. In any event, I'd bet that the pilot knows the passes through the Cascade Mountains well.

 

It's easy to sit back in the comfort and safety of our computer chairs and announce, "He should have landed long ago!" or "That's pretty poor decision-making if you ask me, harumph!" But you know what? Sometimes sh*t happens in a helicopter. We don't fly in a perfect world. When it comes to weather, you take what you get. If it gets really crappy you go down and slow down - it's what helicopters do. Through that stretch you could hover along the road if you needed to without endangering people/property on the ground. It's not exactly a heavily-traveled road.

 

In my long career, I've sometimes been forced to do things similar to what the R-44 here is doing. I don't like it, but I do it. I do it as safely as I can. I slow down to 60 and make sure I can still see ahead. If it gets really bad (like where I'm getting to zero forward visibility) then I land. Yeah, I've done that too. IT'S A HELICOPTER, not a Learjet.

 

Some of you need to get out more, especially the more sanctimonious of you. Because if you say something so unrealistic as, "I'LL never do something as dumb as that R-44 pilot!!" then you're just fooling yourself. And any helicopter pilot who's been doing this for any length of time who says, "I'VE never done that sort of thing!!" is lying.

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It's often easy to look at a picture and make a snap judgment that the pilot was doing something unsafe. The photo in post #1 in this thread does look quite damning. However, upon reading the text, we find out that the location is at the top of Steven's Pass, along Highway 2 in Washington State here in the U.S. While the weather there does look bad, the terrain drops away as you continue westbound, which is the way the R-44 is heading. I'm certain that the R-44 pilot quickly found himself in improving conditions and continued on his way.

 

The helicopter is perhaps one of the cherry-dryers from Chelan headed over to the Seattle area. In any event, I'd bet that the pilot knows the passes through the Cascade Mountains well.

 

It's easy to sit back in the comfort and safety of our computer chairs and announce, "He should have landed long ago!" or "That's pretty poor decision-making if you ask me, harumph!" But you know what? Sometimes sh*t happens in a helicopter. We don't fly in a perfect world. When it comes to weather, you take what you get. If it gets really crappy you go down and slow down - it's what helicopters do. Through that stretch you could hover along the road if you needed to without endangering people/property on the ground. It's not exactly a heavily-traveled road.

 

In my long career, I've sometimes been forced to do things similar to what the R-44 here is doing. I don't like it, but I do it. I do it as safely as I can. I slow down to 60 and make sure I can still see ahead. If it gets really bad (like where I'm getting to zero forward visibility) then I land. Yeah, I've done that too. IT'S A HELICOPTER, not a Learjet.

 

Some of you need to get out more, especially the more sanctimonious of you. Because if you say something so unrealistic as, "I'LL never do something as dumb as that R-44 pilot!!" then you're just fooling yourself. And any helicopter pilot who's been doing this for any length of time who says, "I'VE never done that sort of thing!!" is lying.

 

Thank you for being honest! We all know it's true. Unfortunately, this type of flying does kill a lot of pilots, and the choice between going for that 'opportunity hole' and landing or ADMITTING that you are now in a IIMC scenario and reacting appropriately could mean life or death. You may know the area well. You may have a hole at 100' AGL that you think (hope) will take you through. But those holes can close up and swallow you. At least admit that when you did that kind of flying that you were taking a huge risk of gettin disoriented and ending up starrin the next NTSB report. We all take a risk every time we climb in. I'm not going to say I've never done things like what's in that picture, but saying it's normal or safe or acceptable or the right thing to do is walking on a very slippery slope.

 

We get through these situations the best we can. Just don't push your limits too far unless you have no other choice.

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That's a worrying image and it should generate discussion. Based on the single image, that's exactly the situation that makes a poor decision into a difficult and potentially fatal trap.

If a 180 to VMC isn't an option, is continuing into the cloud a good idea? I don't think so, no matter your "intimate knowledge of the area". One could tragically discover wires. Or run out of flyable weather, even at a slow hover. Or lose surface contact- in the mountains, it can be really, really nerve-wracking doing an invertent IMC recovery and climbing to MSA. Perhaps a ditching into the trees will be required to survive.

 

Perhaps there is a clear, level field in sight at the lodge? Yes, i's inconvenient, but surviving an emergency is the first priority.

 

The helo could land on the highway, create an issue but survive unscratched.

 

It could well be that this is the edge of a cloud, perspective foreshortened, and the helo isn't actually IIMC. Awfully low flight nonetheless, but I don't know what's really happening.

 

It could be severe clear to the rear and all sunlight and blue skies ahead after scooting through this pass unfortunately low and at hazard of a wire strike...

 

It could be that the weather we're looking at formed suddenly, very quickly and unforecast. Perhaps that's how this picture happened.

 

Been there, did that, all of the above- except ditching under power, but I would do that too in order to survive if IFR wasn't a safe, survivable option. The fog bank has moved over the pad I was on, stranding the aircraft. The clear field at the top of the pass has disappeared as I approached. Having a real, survivable abort plan is the best way to live to be an old fart in this business.

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Man I sure hope I can be as good of a pilot as most of you in here. How do you know what the whole big picture looks like?

 

If somebody was to call the owner/operator hopefully they would tell the person who called to get bent. I know if somebody called my boss he would tell you a piece of his mind. If you weren't there you have no right to throw quick judgement around on the web.

 

Pilots are supposed to stick together as most know that's not true. Most pilots are so quick to throw another pilot under the bus! I'm sure that wasn't the point of this thread but that's what is happening here.

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Man I sure hope I can be as good of a pilot as most of you in here. How do you know what the whole big picture looks like?

 

If somebody was to call the owner/operator hopefully they would tell the person who called to get bent. I know if somebody called my boss he would tell you a piece of his mind. If you weren't there you have no right to throw quick judgement around on the web.

 

Pilots are supposed to stick together as most know that's not true. Most pilots are so quick to throw another pilot under the bus! I'm sure that wasn't the point of this thread but that's what is happening here.

 

I disagree. I think most have been pretty reasonable about not jumping to conclusions. This is strictly hypothetical discussion as we know that a picture doesn't always show the whole picture.

 

Also remember, perception is reality. A damning photograph can ruin a career. I have seen pilots get grounded from photos that were misleading. It's an occupational hazard.

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No, no, no- it's not an imminent I-IMC encounter. That's why he's down low OVER THE ROAD.

 

Again, it's a helicopter. If the viz gets really sh*tty you *stop* and turn around and go back the other way. Come to a hover and pedal turn if you must. Or you land if there's a clear area nearby. Don't lose sight of the ground! Stevens Pass is "only" 4,000 feet high so even an R-44 ought to be able to do a slow course-reversal rather than "punch in." But having said that, the decision to set 'er down must be made before you're sitting there at a hover in the soup with fuzzy trees all around, going, "Now what, nitwit?" (Ask me if I've ever said that to myself.)

 

Having been through Stevens Pass a number of times, I feel confident that the weather was probably "good enough" for flying at the lower elevations on either side of it. The pilot probably saw the clouds and decided to scoot along underneath along the road. It was probably "acceptably bad" with just a few really low spots and - "Hey, is that a guy with a camera on the balcony of that hotel there? Crap. Well, it's just a red R-44, maybe they'll mistake me for that lady pilot from Arizona who thinks all cherry-drying ought to be done single-pilot...HAH!"

 

Sometimes that's what you gotta do.

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I've seen too many wires overhead while driving through mountain passes (funny how I notice those things now) to feel comfortable flying below tree level, over a road. I've had enough encounters with the fog to learn to give it a wide bearth. So, from my experience I couldn't see myself in this picture,...but those are my personnal minimums!

 

We all have our own personnal minimums, and I'm kind of a pussy, so I suppose those minimums could get me fired one day (if they're higher than my boss'). One thing is for sure, with the mention that this is in Washington and possibly a returning cherry drying pilot, I'm almost glad I didn't get to do it this year! Trees, wires, fog,...no thanks!

 

I wonder if this picture would have spurned different responses if it were a A109?

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Man I sure hope I can be as good of a pilot as most of you in here. How do you know what the whole big picture looks like?

 

If somebody was to call the owner/operator hopefully they would tell the person who called to get bent. I know if somebody called my boss he would tell you a piece of his mind. If you weren't there you have no right to throw quick judgement around on the web.

 

Pilots are supposed to stick together as most know that's not true. Most pilots are so quick to throw another pilot under the bus! I'm sure that wasn't the point of this thread but that's what is happening here.

 

Throwing someone under the bus, the way I perceive the phrase, is to unjustifiably, and even dishonestly stab someone in the back undeservedly. But what is better, to point out to some less experienced pilot that a scenario may be problematic, that a more experienced pilot has experienced or heard about during their career, or to not counsel them and leave them to the whims of chance ?

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We all have our own personnal minimums, and I'm kind of a pussy, so I suppose those minimums could get me fired one day (if they're higher than my boss').

 

No boss in their right mind would fire a pilot for not being comfortable with the weather. I know they are out there. I hope I never have to work for one.

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Man I sure hope I can be as good of a pilot as most of you in here. How do you know what the whole big picture looks like?

 

If somebody was to call the owner/operator hopefully they would tell the person who called to get bent. I know if somebody called my boss he would tell you a piece of his mind. If you weren't there you have no right to throw quick judgement around on the web.

 

Pilots are supposed to stick together as most know that's not true. Most pilots are so quick to throw another pilot under the bus! I'm sure that wasn't the point of this thread but that's what is happening here.

 

This is a discussion. It has already been said multiple times that what we are all discussing is based on the picture, and that we all know pictures can be highly deceiving. I did not start this thread to damn the pilot of that R44, but to generate a discussion on these kinds of hazards (IIMC, CFIT, etc) based on what is seen in the picture.

 

Regarding what you said about calling the owner/operator, why would you automatically tell the caller to get bent? I see what you're saying if someone calls and is completely assuming the picture shows everything and is calling the pilot a jackass or an idiot without the whole story (again, pictures can be deceiving), but what if the caller is completely reasonable, another helicopter pilot, is nice and polite and is simply saying "hey sir, there's a picture posted on such-and-such website of your R44 flying down highway 2 and I just wanted to let you know. I know a picture can be really misleading, but I figured you would probably rather know and choose to do nothing about it (completely understandable if in fact this was a safe situation), rather than not know of this picture and therefore not be able to have a discussion with your pilot if in fact it was unnecessary and unsafe flying." I think that you're assuming the caller is a jackass out to get everyone.

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And I know just as many who are interested in promoting safety in a reasonable manner. By all means, I agree, I would probably hang up on someone who came across as out to "get" everyone, but I would not hang up on someone who was calmly and understandably communicating a concern.

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Understood and agreed. Just playing devil's advocate for a moment. I kind of see where helipilotm was coming from, but at the same time, I know where everyone else is coming from as well. If I saw something unsafe, and I knew who the owner/operator was, I would give them a ring. If they don't care that's their prerogative.

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