how many cfi's without jobs?

Francis Meyrick · April 29, 2014

Alright everyone, this topic became very confusing so I've created a condensed version for those of you too busy to read all of the posts up until now:

Post 1: Should I complete helicopter training?
Post 2: It depends on if you work hard
Post 3: It can be done but it will be hard
Post 4: Post 2 is correct
Post 5: Keep your head up, you can do it.
Post 6: Good luck it’s tough but you can do it.
Post 7: Be a good pilot and role model and you can do it
Post 8: You might make it, or maybe you should just fly for fun.
Post 9: Boatpix trying to sell themselves.
Post 10: Boatpix trying to sell themselves.
Post 11: If you don’t know for sure, it’s probably not for you
Post 11: Hiring a CFI in Spain
Post 12: Your job posting doesn’t belong here
Post 13: Spike is an angry individual don’t let him scare you
Post 14: I’m not grumpy, (proceeds to act sort-a grumpy)
Post 15: Groans because of Boatpix trying to sell themselves
Post 16: Spike is a grumpy individual
Post 17: The industry doesn’t owe any pilot anything
Post 18: Be a good mentor people named spike and people who agree with him are grumpy
Post 19: No we aren’t
Post 20: I’m sick of these topics and sometimes people are grumpy
Post 21: No we aren’t
Post 22: No we aren’t
Post 23: Yes you are
Post 24: No we aren’t
Post 25: Yes you are
Post 26: No we aren’t
Post 27: Ok maybe you aren’t
Post 28: What was the topic again? You should think about others and help them
Post 29: People need to sink or swim on their own
Post 30: How many CFIs are there without jobs?
Post 31: Boatpix trying to sell themselves
Post 32: Boatpix’s is selling snake oil
Post 33: Boatpix is selling snake oil
Post 34: clarify the original question or I will taunt you
Post 35: Shut up post 34
Post 36: I enjoy my job as a helicopter pilot
Post 37: Accuses post 35 of being 14 years old
Post 38: Smartass response by Spike
Post 39: enjoying post 38
Post 40: Shut up post 34
Post 41: Angry at people who disliked his post 34
Post 42: Shut up post 41+34
Post 43: Enjoying post 42
Post 44: Enjoying post 42
Post 45: Angry at people who disliked his post 34 and 41
Post 46: I’m tired of this topic
Post 47: Be more creative than saying shut up when in the forums
Post 48: Angry at post 46
Post 49: I like Spike and I also disliked post 34 and 41
Post 50: The original topic poster is long gone
Post 51: facepalm
Post 52: Hi I’m new here and I want to be a helicopter pilot
Post 53: Who cares if the original poster is long gone?
Post 54: Let’s hope he got his info before the crazy set in
Post 55: disliked post 34 and 41
Post 56: The original poster is long gone and hasn’t come back
Post 57: The original poster was most likely a young foreign student who wore t-shirts rather than a suit
Post 58: Removed
Post 59: Be a good student and professional also I disliked post 34 and 41
Post 60: Try hard and be professional
Post 61: Don’t hesitate and if you want to do it then do it ZIPPY SUMMARY++++

(I doff my greasy cap to Zippy...)

Post 62: Ha-ha!

Post 63: awesome Ha-ha!!

Post 64: we love Zippy!

Post 65: Zippy for President!

Post 66: Hey OP! Where you at, laddie?

(silence) ??

Post 67: Be good. And nice. Dammit.

Post 68: Post 67: Dislikes post number 62

Post 69: sweet girly Ha-ha!!

Post 70: Zippy rules okay!

Post 71: I know of this job...

Post 72: Moggy asks for a sh*t stirring

Post 73: Eagle 5 obliges

Post 74: there IS Life after Death

Post 75: I is a retard. How you?

(to be continued...??)

Edited April 29, 2014 by Francis Meyrick

Jaybee · April 29, 2014

I've been gone for a while so I'll take a shot at it.

I found a job last year with a small operation flying a 44, mainly ENG with some Tours and Photos every so often. Then I discovered that I don't like spending hours every day in a helicopter. My knees hurt, my back hurts, and when its your job you HAVE to be up there, whether you feel like it or not! I once thought that this was worth living in my car because the pay was crap while I built up my hours, but after doing it I've definitely changed my mind! After just about 5 months I hated it so much that I said f*ck this and went back to my old job. I'm not sure what you guys think is so great about commercial flying, but I really think it sucks!

That ought to offend somebody?

By the way, its been like a year and a half since Helicoptered started this thread, I wonder what he decided to do? These types of OPs never come back to say what happened to them!

Yet, again and again when the experienced guys chime in with their so called "negativity" the advice gets ignored time and time again....

The reality severely underwhelms the dream...

Fred0311 · April 29, 2014

I became an unemployed CFI Saturday myself. Before that I was just an unemployed commercial pilot.

Update: A week later I'm no longer unemployed.

Edited May 3, 2014 by Fred0311

Francis Meyrick · April 29, 2014

The reality severely underwhelms the dream...

Dude. That's so a sad statement.... What's Life without Dreams? Eh?

Starry, starry Night

aeroscout · April 29, 2014

Merrily Merrily Moggyly Moggyly,

Life is but a...

Jaybee · April 29, 2014

Dude. That's so a sad statement.... What's Life without Dreams? Eh?

Starry, starry Night

Not sad for me, I knew exactly what I was getting in to, exactly how hard it was going to be, etc, etc and I love absolutely every second of it.

Francis Meyrick · April 29, 2014

Not sad for me, I knew exactly what I was getting in to, exactly how hard it was going to be, etc, etc and I love absolutely every second of it.

I totally misunderstood your post then.

I'm glad for you.

Jaybee · April 29, 2014

I totally misunderstood your post then.

Maybe, it seems to me that lots of people (mostly younger) get into this business but really don't understand what it will actually be like.

Sure you tell them, two weeks in a tent on a fire contract and they say "No problem" but then you put them in a tent for two weeks in the middle of nowhere and,,,,,

or you stick them inside the greenhouse for hours at a time sweating like a whore in church hot loading passengers for dirt pay in a 44 at max gross with minimum fuel in a sketchy landing pad and they all say "I'll do it and sleep in my car !" as Eagle testified, he was willing to sleep in his car for no or little pay, until he actually did it...

but hey, yea - as long as the new guys keep ignoring the experienced guys' advice, there will be an everlasting line of people willing to stab you in the back to make minimum wage or less (pitiful salary + long hours) or worse - pay for a job !

Francis Meyrick · April 29, 2014

I kind of look at it way differently. That doesn't make me right, and you wrong. Just way different outlook and psyche, I guess.

To be happy in aviation, but especially the quicksilver, fascinating world of helicopters, you have got to love the Art Form. If you're thinking more in terms of $$$$-job security-Burger King- pretty girls- night life- stability.... then coming up through the ranks as a young, struggling CFI, is going to be likely enough unhappy. It's not uncommon to see guys with $100.000 to $120,000 student loan debt. I've seen $165,000. Guys with monthly loan payments of $1,200 to $1,700 per month. That's a BIG mortgage payment with no house to show for it! These are hard, hard numbers you just have to crunch in advance. before you jump in. And that's what some of the previous posters have -coldly- pointed to. You makes your choice beforehand, you know nobody owes you a living. There is a need for some analytic realism. Cold number crunching.

Once you have done that... accepted the risks... once you have jumped in.... I would offer this old fart's input (for what it's worth, probably not-a-lot) and I'd say suck every last morsel out of every last learning opportunity.

two weeks in a tent on a fire contract... invaluable learning. There are times in helicopters you will be surrounded by people, maybe not all easy to get along with, and "people skills" is the name of the game. I'm still learning that one, every day. And there are times you will be isolated, and really get to know yourself a whole lot better. Practice both skills. If you really can't get along by yourself, and work through solitude, and rough the rough times, then maybe helicopters is not your line of work. Chances are there WILL be solitude, remote operations, maybe surrounded by Nature, and attendant creature discomforts. I blog about many of those type of adventures, and you will see those themes reflected, albeit in fumbling prose, but written as honestly as I could.

or you stick them inside the greenhouse for hours at a time sweating like a whore in church hot loading passengers for dirt pay in a 44 at max gross with minimum fuel in a sketchy landing pad

BIg, BIG learning time. Embrace it. Get used to being hot. And cold. And uncomfortable. It happens a lot. When you can throw your socks at the wall at night, and they stick there, you know you earned your pay. But dealing with limited power, confined landing area, juggling numbers, weight, fuel, passengers, daylight, range... that never changes. And you have GOT to be able to absorb that kind of punishment, and keep 100% sharp and your concentration focused... or else. Helicopters and Humans (22)

but hey, yea - as long as the new guys keep ignoring the experienced guys' advice, there will be an everlasting line of people willing to stab you in the back to make minimum wage or less (pitiful salary + long hours) or worse - pay for a job !

There are also a zillion helicopter jobs out there that are either well paid, or at least afford a decent living. Not everybody is trying to stab everybody in the back.

To me, helicopters is an endlessly fascinating Art Form. I always see things that get my tiny brain ticking over. I wholeheartedly agree with previous posters who caution to crunch the numbers well in advance. Before you jump in the deep end.

But once you go... soak it up. Fly like the devil.

Okay, I'll shut up now.

Edited April 29, 2014 by Francis Meyrick

Jaybee · April 29, 2014

I kind of look at it way differently - not really all that different

To be happy in aviation, but especially the quicksilver, fascinating world of helicopters, you have got to love the Art Form.

And there are times you will be isolated, and really get to know yourself a whole lot better. Practice both skills. If you really can't get along by yourself, and work through solitude, and rough the rough times, then maybe helicopters is not your line of work. Chances are there WILL be solitude, remote operations, maybe surrounded by Nature, and attendant creature discomforts.

Get used to being hot. And cold. And uncomfortable. It happens a lot. When you can throw your socks at the wall at night, and they stick there, you know you earned your pay. But dealing with limited power, confined landing area, juggling numbers, weight, fuel, passengers, daylight, range... that never changes. And you have GOT to be able to absorb that kind of punishment, and keep 100% sharp and your concentration focused... or else.

But once you go... soak it up.

Those are the realities. The realities that oft gets ignored.

We are essentially saying the same thing in a different way.

"There are also a zillion helicopter jobs out there that are either well paid, or at least afford a decent living. Not everybody is trying to stab everybody in the back." Agreed, once you get that far in your career, I was speaking to entry level positions.

eagle5 · April 29, 2014

Many years ago before I became a pilot I slept in my car for almost 6 months while working at a golf course for crap pay. Before that I slept in my car for a month while trying to make a go at living in Hawaii. I even slept under the stars at a camp site just outside Rome because I had no tent (or sleeping bag) while backpacking through Europe. It wasn't the sleeping arangements, or the crap pay. It was the job itself! Commercial flying just seems to take the joy out of flying, and I didn't like hating something I onced loved!

No faceless internet poster tried to warn me against that, and even if they had, why would I (or any wanabee for that matter) listen to them? Just because I hated it doesn't mean that you will! In life you have to figure things out for yourself!

Jaybee · April 29, 2014

Many years ago before I became a pilot I slept in my car for almost 6 months while working at a golf course for crap pay. Before that I slept in my car for a month while trying to make a go at living in Hawaii. I even slept under the stars at a camp site just outside Rome because I had no tent (or sleeping bag) while backpacking through Europe. It wasn't the sleeping arangements, or the crap pay. It was the job itself! Commercial flying just seems to take the joy out of flying, and I didn't like hating something I onced loved!

No faceless internet poster tried to warn me against that, and even if they had, why would I (or any wanabee for that matter) listen to them? Just because I hated it doesn't mean that you will! In life you have to figure things out for yourself!

"I found a job last year with a small operation flying a 44, mainly ENG with some Tours and Photos every so often. Then I discovered that I don't like spending hours every day in a helicopter. My knees hurt, my back hurts, and when its your job you HAVE to be up there, whether you feel like it or not! I once thought that this was worth living in my car because the pay was crap while I built up my hours, but after doing it I've definitely changed my mind! After just about 5 months I hated it so much that I said f*ck this and went back to my old job. I'm not sure what you guys think is so great about commercial flying, but I really think it sucks! "

Not sure of your intent to pick nits, all of the things you talked about were mentioned - hot, uncomfortable, low pay, etc, etc. and also are the basis of most experienced peoples opinions when they give them to people that ask. then when they give that experience, the people asking invariably knee-jerk and say "its my dream, ill put up with anything to live my dream why you so negative" so can't say you weren't warned if you did your due diligence

"Why would you listen to them ?" we are in a business that if you don't learn from others mistakes you will become the mistake we learn from, if that logic does not resonate with you then you are aiming for the wrong career when thinking about becoming a pilot.

'Having to figure it out yourself" sure, at the end of the day - its your choice what you are willing to put up with to make it, but again if you don't follow the logic of learning from others experiences.....

Are you related to Pilot 47XXX? Argue just to argue ?

Pohi · April 29, 2014

That's an interesting point, a lot of the focus of conversation typically is on the student-cfi route and not much more on what life is like after. I do recall there being an attempt at a FAQ for job specific fields a while back addressing these job lifestyles. They might be finished.

cryesis · April 29, 2014

Helicopters, it's not just a job it's an adventure........I think there was a navy recruiting poster like that at some point

On a more serious note life after flight school can be a bit tough, I was lucky enough to get hired by my school and build some time. Now I'm moving onto my second job and moving 1300 miles away from home and everything/everyone I know but, I wouldn't trade it for the world. As a CFI were there days where I didn't want to fly, yes! At this new job will there be days where I don't want to fly yes! But in reality once your actually flying then your happy to be up there. Any other job there'd be days I didn't want to go to work and when I got there I still didn't want to be there. Never had that feeling flying commercially, especially once I got in the air.

Edited April 29, 2014 by cryesis

eagle5 · April 29, 2014

"I found a job last year with a small operation flying a 44, mainly ENG with some Tours and Photos every so often. Then I discovered that I don't like spending hours every day in a helicopter. My knees hurt, my back hurts, and when its your job you HAVE to be up there, whether you feel like it or not! I once thought that this was worth living in my car because the pay was crap while I built up my hours, but after doing it I've definitely changed my mind! After just about 5 months I hated it so much that I said f*ck this and went back to my old job. I'm not sure what you guys think is so great about commercial flying, but I really think it sucks! "

Not sure of your intent to pick nits, all of the things you talked about were mentioned - hot, uncomfortable, low pay, etc, etc. and also are the basis of most experienced peoples opinions when they give them to people that ask. then when they give that experience, the people asking invariably knee-jerk and say "its my dream, ill put up with anything to live my dream why you so negative" so can't say you weren't warned if you did your due diligence

"Why would you listen to them ?" we are in a business that if you don't learn from others mistakes you will become the mistake we learn from, if that logic does not resonate with you then you are aiming for the wrong career when thinking about becoming a pilot.

'Having to figure it out yourself" sure, at the end of the day - its your choice what you are willing to put up with to make it, but again if you don't follow the logic of learning from others experiences.....

Are you related to Pilot 47XXX? Argue just to argue ?

No I don't know him, just like I don't know you. That's my point. You're offended because a complete stanger didn't take your advice. Why would I? For all I know you could be a 10 year old kid in Paraguay, or a bored soccer mom in Pasadena. You want advice, here's some, don't come to the internet looking for advice! That's probably why the OP has never returned.

You act like I asked for all this advice, ignored it because it wasn't what I wanted to here and now I'm blamming all you "experienced" guys for what happened. That's insanely rediculous! I didn't base my decicion to become a commercial pilot on internet forums and I didn't decide to leave commercial flying because of internet forums.

I thought it would be a cool way to make a living? I was wrong. Nothing more!

Enjoying this Moggy?

Francis Meyrick · April 29, 2014

Enjoying this Moggy?

"PLEASE LEAVE A MESSAGE AFTER THE BEEP" BEEEEEEEEEEP+++++

aeroscout · April 29, 2014

I am offended that Moggy is the only one who is expected to enjoy this !

Jaybee · April 29, 2014

No I don't know him, just like I don't know you. That's my point. You're offended because a complete stanger didn't take your advice. Why would I? For all I know you could be a 10 year old kid in Paraguay, or a bored soccer mom in Pasadena. You want advice, here's some, don't come to the internet looking for advice! That's probably why the OP has never returned.

You act like I asked for all this advice, ignored it because it wasn't what I wanted to here and now I'm blamming all you "experienced" guys for what happened. That's insanely rediculous! I didn't base my decicion to become a commercial pilot on internet forums and I didn't decide to leave commercial flying because of internet forums.

I thought it would be a cool way to make a living? I was wrong. Nothing more!

Enjoying this Moggy?

Not offended at all.

Could have spared yourself the trouble with a little bit of research, that is all I said but I guess due diligence was beyond your scope. Who said anything about limiting your research to just the internet?

Guess Forrest said it best - stupid is as stupid does.

eagle5 · April 30, 2014

Not offended at all.

Could have spared yourself the trouble with a little bit of research, that is all I said but I guess due diligence was beyond your scope. Who said anything about limiting your research to just the internet?

Guess Forrest said it best - stupid is as stupid does.

Research can only take you so far. Some things you just have to get in there and try first hand to make a true opinion of them. I would rather have tried then quit because it wasn't what I thought it would be, than never have tried at all and always wonder what if!

Its sad that you think this stupid, but you are who you are.

Jaybee · April 30, 2014

1 - No I don't know him, just like I don't know you. That's my point. You're offended because a complete stanger didn't take your advice. Why would I? For all I know you could be a 10 year old kid in Paraguay, or a bored soccer mom in Pasadena. You want advice, here's some, don't come to the internet looking for advice! That's probably why the OP has never returned.

2 - You act like I asked for all this advice, ignored it because it wasn't what I wanted to here and now I'm blamming all you "experienced" guys for what happened. That's insanely rediculous! I didn't base my decicion to become a commercial pilot on internet forums and I didn't decide to leave commercial flying because of internet forums.

3 - I thought it would be a cool way to make a living? I was wrong. Nothing more!

Enjoying this Moggy?

1 - Guess I had you confused with this guy - http://helicopterforum.verticalreference.com/topic/16464-is-this-really-a-good-career-choice/ or this guy - http://helicopterforum.verticalreference.com/topic/16528-fool-me-once-shame-on-you-fool-me-twice/

2 - see number 1

3 - yep, you got that one right...

Research can only take you so far. Some things you just have to get in there and try first hand to make a true opinion of them. I would rather have tried then quit because it wasn't what I thought it would be, than never have tried at all and always wonder what if!

Its sad that you think this stupid, but you are who you are.

the emboldened part is the entirety of my point, it would have been exactly what you thought it would be, if you had listened... or done your due diligence. You can justify it all you want or you can look back for the five years I've been coming to this site and see time and time again over and over the experienced guys giving the same advice over and over. The same advice you ignored.

As a fairly smart guy I once consulted years ago says regularly and I must quote "its a J O B"

Francis Meyrick · April 30, 2014

Can somebody PLEASE take offense to somebody's post so we can continue offending somebody?

I think I might have to work on my diplomacy...

eagle5 · April 30, 2014

I can see where you're confused. You think that because I was asking what others would do in my place that I was asking for advice on what I should do. I was just having second thoughts (oh' my god how dare I!) and wanted to know how others in my position would handle it. If you want to stick with your claim that I asked for advice then ignored it that's fine. Even if I did ignore it so what! Its my life I'll live it how I want plus I don't blame anyone nor am I angry at anyone.

Its interesting, you're not offended, yet you seem to have the time (and desire) to hunt through old posts (ones I myself had long forgotten about) just to put me in my place? Good for you!

Jaybee · April 30, 2014

I've been gone for a while so I'll take a shot at it.

I found a job last year with a small operation flying a 44, mainly ENG with some Tours and Photos every so often. Then I discovered that I don't like spending hours every day in a helicopter. My knees hurt, my back hurts, and when its your job you HAVE to be up there, whether you feel like it or not! I once thought that this was worth living in my car because the pay was crap while I built up my hours, but after doing it I've definitely changed my mind! After just about 5 months I hated it so much that I said f*ck this and went back to my old job. I'm not sure what you guys think is so great about commercial flying, but I really think it sucks!

That ought to offend somebody?

By the way, its been like a year and a half since Helicoptered started this thread, I wonder what he decided to do? These types of OPs never come back to say what happened to them!

You said you didn't know what was so great about commercial flying because of blah blah blah. If you ask any commercial pilot what its like they will say blah blah blah. I knew it was exactly blah blah blah and compared to my old career yes, I love every second of it. Thats it, just saying that I love it, not sure why your panties are all wadded up about that.

I can see where you're confused. You think that because I was asking what others would do in my place that I was asking for advice on what I should do. I was just having second thoughts (oh' my god how dare I!) and wanted to know how others in my position would handle it. If you want to stick with your claim that I asked for advice then ignored it that's fine. Even if I did ignore it so what! Its my life I'll live it how I want plus I don't blame anyone nor am I angry at anyone.

Its interesting, you're not offended, yet you seem to have the time (and desire) to hunt through old posts (ones I myself had long forgotten about) just to put me in my place? Good for you!

I was just responding to your original statement, you were the one the felt the need to defend yourself because you didn't agree with my opinion that if you are too stupid to take advice and heed it that you are in fact stupid. You don't think it is stupid to waste a bunch of money and time to figure out it is exactly like the majority of people said it was. I believe the majority of people would agree that it is stupid, except of course apparently you. You then babbled on about why would anyone take the advice of an anonymous internet person because no one warned you. Again, if you were too lazy or stupid to do your due diligence that is on you. Lastly, you say you are ok with it and quite frankly don't really care if you are - the reason I "have desire" is that hopefully someone else will read this and see how stupid you are and not make the same mistake. I also didn't have to dig through old posts, I have an astounding memory.

eagle5 · April 30, 2014

You don't think it is stupid to waste a bunch of money and time to figure out it is exactly like the majority of people said it was.

Ah' now I see where I was confused. I didn't realize that the majority of people were saying that flying for a living really sucks and that no one should ever pursue it. My bad! I guess that's the real reason there is a pilot shortage, not because the Vietnam guys are retiring, but because the job just plain sucks! Oh' well live and learn So you win, I'm stupid!.

As for wasting a bunch of money? I'm still a pilot and I still fly, just no longer for compensation or hire. So the only waste is my 23hrs on commercial training and 18 for cfi. So at $300/hr that's $12,300 wasted away. Although the school I started renting from doesn't allow anyone to take passengers unless they're commercially rated, so its really only the 18hrs of cfi training that's a waste. That's about $6,000 bucks (if you include the checkride fee). Not exactly a "bunch" of money to give a shot at a one time "dream" job.

Maybe I'll go join the mosquito group they seem pretty happy, but wait there might be a bunch of people telling me that owning an aircraft sucks, so I'd better look back to check. Who knows 3 years ago I may have been one of them?

Well what do ya know Moggy, turns out I was the one who was offended!

...next

aeroscout · April 30, 2014

Helicopter pilots aren't very opinionated.

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how many cfi's without jobs?

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