jjsemperfi Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 So when one gets an actual "mythical" job flying helicopters for someone is there much chance to move up the chain getting into bigger helicopters through the company if you have no previous experience in said bigger heli's? Just curious because I have heard some people with all 300C time get a job flying AS350's and then they are thrown into a 212 after a couple years. Does this happen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick1128 Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 Why should a company hire an unknown pilot to fly a more valuable company asset? You getting upgraded depends on many things. The company: company needs and policies, customer requirements. you: your attitude, your ability, your adaptability and flexibility, You will also need to express an interest in moving up also. I have run into pilots that are very happy and comfortable doing just what they are doing and have very little if any interest in moving on to bigger machines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wally Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 So when one gets an actual "mythical" job flying helicopters for someone is there much chance to move up the chain getting into bigger helicopters through the company if you have no previous experience in said bigger heli's? Just curious because I have heard some people with all 300C time get a job flying AS350's and then they are thrown into a 212 after a couple years. Does this happen? Yes. No. Always. Sometimes. Or never. In truth, it all depends on the operator and the pilot. Everybody I've worked for would upgrade in-house before an outside hire, but it depends greatly on the pilot availability on the job and desired retention. Commercial operators pretty much have to train you up to the new seat whether you got zero or hundreds of hours in type. You don't spend training money on somebody you don't want in the job (and you're kind of hoping will quit), and you want to keep the person who's done other jobs well. Actual mileage may vary, but the attitude and ability that gets the job done right will most likely continue to be effective with new challenges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjsemperfi Posted September 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 Why should a company hire an unknown pilot to fly a more valuable company asset? You getting upgraded depends on many things. The company: company needs and policies, customer requirements. you: your attitude, your ability, your adaptability and flexibility, Thanks Wally, that makes sense. You will also need to express an interest in moving up also. I have run into pilots that are very happy and comfortable doing just what they are doing and have very little if any interest in moving on to bigger machines. You miss understood me Sir. I mean once you are already established in the company, what are the chances they would move you up internally to fly their bigger heli's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjsemperfi Posted September 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 This post tugs at the age old question, how do you get to fly a helicopter that requires experience in Type if you cannot get that experience because you have no experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helipilotm Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 In simple terms... Yes it happens. Like everybody said it's gonna depend on allot of things, attitude, work ethic etc. if the company likes you and are happy they would much rather spend the money on the right guy. Now that being said it might not happen as quick as you like. But it does happen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avbug Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 The process you're asking about is "upgrading." Bigger doesn't mean a lot. The size of the equipment isn't what counts, so to speak; but rather what's being done with it. Considerable utility experience translates into value in a utility operation. One can always train someone on new equipment. Moving from one aircraft to another isn't a big deal. What's needed is experience. Upgrading depends on a number of factors, and it's different for each operator. The only constant when moving between the operators, as a basis for comparison, will be you. Depending on the type of firm, it's not that uncommon today to be sent to a training facility to get one's initial or upgrade training, by an employer. Many employers still train in-house, but more and more, insurance companies prefer dedicated training facilities. This becomes especially true of more expensive equipment. Some individuals seek out their own training and qualification when doing contract work, or maintain their own ongoing recurrent training (Flight Safety International, for example). Most don't. If you're not qualified on a particular piece of equipment, it's generally up to the employer to qualify you. I've hired into a number of positions for which I didn't have aircraft-specific experience, but for which I had a background that qualified me for the job. Training for the specific aircraft was the burden of the employer. Your question is what it takes to make that upgrade or change. The answer is you. Often a firm will upgrade within, rather than hiring externally, if personnel at the firm meet everything but the aircraft-specific qualifications. If you've been doing longline in the AS350, for example, then you are going to find the transition to the B212 not a big deal at all. If you've been flying a Lear, transition to a Hawker is nothing. Just expense. And on it goes...the hardest part of flying is paying for it, and it's a matter of convincing an employer to pay for it. Are you someone that's going to stick around for a while after the employer has invested the money? Are you going to take care of and respect the equipment? Are you going to fulfill the employers needs and properly represent the employer? If the answer to these is yes, and you're insurable, then you stand a good chance of upgrading when the time is right. There's got to be an opening. There's got to be a good reason to put you in that seat vs. someone that is already qualified. Perhaps it's that no one else is available, and you are. Perhaps it's that you already know the company culture and procedures, and the company knows you. Perhaps it's that you're already involved in that operation and the clients know you. Perhaps it's that you've expressed a long term desire to stay with that employer. Perhaps it's that you live locally and other applicants don't. Perhaps it's that you have a lot more relevant experience in that kind of operation. Perhaps it's that the company is selling what you're flying now, and buying something else: they're going to train you for the new equipment. There could be a lot of reasons, but if the opening is there and you're the best fit for any of those reasons (or more), then it may very well be you in that seat. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjsemperfi Posted September 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2012 Cool, thanks for your responses gents. I'm always trying to think of the best way to fly what I want to fly. And if I'm going to be stuck flying A Stars and Jet Rangers for the rest of my life, I would peruse other options (ie WOFT). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjsemperfi Posted September 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2012 Sounds like there is definitely room to upgrade being a civilian pilot though. Makes me feel a lot better about doing this as a civilian. It's funny, I got out of the military to fly, and now it seems like the best way to fly, is to get back in the military. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avbug Posted September 26, 2012 Report Share Posted September 26, 2012 And if I'm going to be stuck flying A Stars and Jet Rangers for the rest of my life, I would peruse other options (ie WOFT). If that's your position, now is a good time to re-think your involvement in the industry. An outsider's perspective is that "bigger is better." I've certainly not done it all, but I've done a lot (and am still doing). I've flown the biggest...too big to have rotors, in fact, and it's not what it's cracked up to be. It's just another aircraft. If your quest is to fly the biggest aircraft, it may be a long wait. If you're not happy until you're there, you're in for a lot of unhappy years. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
palmfish Posted September 26, 2012 Report Share Posted September 26, 2012 And if I'm going to be stuck flying A Stars and Jet Rangers for the rest of my life, I would peruse other options (ie WOFT). I flew CH-47's in the Army but now I'm stuck flying a lowly AStar for twice the pay, weekends off, home every night, etc. Poor me... Bigger is better? What would you rather drive, a Ford Econoline or a Porsche 911? Yup, you definitely need to research this industry a little more. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wally Posted September 26, 2012 Report Share Posted September 26, 2012 (edited) Cool, thanks for your responses gents. I'm always trying to think of the best way to fly what I want to fly. And if I'm going to be stuck flying A Stars and Jet Rangers for the rest of my life, I would peruse other options (ie WOFT). If you want to "fly", the simpler the better. The more takeoffs/landings I do the happier I am (up to about 100 a day, then writer's cramp becomes a factor).If you want to see how well you analyze weather patterns and bet the end of the duty period on busting out at minimums, on time. go for it. There's a lot of satisfaction in the technical analysis and stuff. But autopilots bore me.If you just want to manage systems, however, bigger is better. That might be "flying" but it's more like systems operator with a flight plan. Edited September 26, 2012 by Wally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjsemperfi Posted September 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2012 Wally, I couldn't agree with you more, hence the reason I chose helicopters. I have airplane ratings and if I wanted to drive a bus I would have done that and would probably be a Captain by now. I love flying helicopters though, so that's why I've been broke for the past 2 years and I'm just now getting my first student. I don't want to manage systems, or fly a bus, I want to actually FLY helicopters. What I mean by bigger is 205's, 212's, 412's, not AW139's or S92's. And I'm just trying to find out information (on a FORUM) about the best way to go about this. And if I wouldn't be able to advance to larger helicopters (Like a UH-1 or 212 etc.) I wouldn't re think my career or quit, I would find a better way to get there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjsemperfi Posted September 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2012 I flew CH-47's in the Army but now I'm stuck flying a lowly AStar for twice the pay, weekends off, home every night, etc. Poor me... Bigger is better? What would you rather drive, a Ford Econoline or a Porsche 911? Yup, you definitely need to research this industry a little more. That's awesome. You've done it all, and now you're happy flying A Stars. I'm not saying bigger is better. I never want to fly a bus. But I do want to fly UH-1's or 212's just as I said above. You all make it seem like I'm putting down pilot's who fly small helicopters. That is not the case. I would give my left nut to fly an A Star. But I would certainly like to fly a 412 if I had the chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
palmfish Posted September 27, 2012 Report Share Posted September 27, 2012 That's awesome. You've done it all, and now you're happy flying A Stars. I'm not saying bigger is better. I never want to fly a bus. But I do want to fly UH-1's or 212's just as I said above. You all make it seem like I'm putting down pilot's who fly small helicopters. That is not the case. I would give my left nut to fly an A Star. But I would certainly like to fly a 412 if I had the chance. I don't think you're putting anyone down, I just think your choice of words is misrepresenting what you actually mean. Wanting to fly UH-1's or 412's is fine (well, 412's anyways, the UH-1 is a pig), but when you say things like, "advance to larger helicopters" or "move up the chain into bigger helicopters" you are demonstrating a lack of understanding of the industry. It's not the size of the helicopter, rather it's what you do with it that matters. Advancing as a pilot within an organization involves gaining more experience and maturity, thus being granted more and more responsibility and performing more complex / higher risk operations. In other words, it's the more advanced/complex/risky MISSIONS that you advance into, not the MACHINE. The machine is simply the tool used to perform the mission. Don't misunderstand what I'm saying - I'm not trying to bust your chops. Really! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjsemperfi Posted September 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2012 Oh no worries. I know, everyone thinks I'm crazy for wanting to fly UH-1's. I just love them, rode on them in the Corps and can't get em out of my head. Like I said, I might fly them one day and discover they're not for me, but I'm sure as hell going to try to fly one. I see what you're saying, and my vocab is definitely lacking. Sorry about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avbug Posted September 27, 2012 Report Share Posted September 27, 2012 It's not the size of the helicopter, rather it's what you do with it that matters. Ultimately, it's the paycheck that matters. If something smaller pays better, you're probably in the right place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatpix Posted September 27, 2012 Report Share Posted September 27, 2012 Its generally the insurance company that is going to dictate how many hours in type you need and if you pay for those hours or that special schooling you might get the job. I have available at my school an OH-6 and a UH-1 that we refer people to as they were R22 pilots once and flew for me or near me and we have a relationship as they moved on to bigger and I stayed in entry level helicopters. The UH-1 is here in South Florida and its $2500/hour. At our flight school most everyone flies R22' as you get the most hours for the least amount of money and generally people need hours to meet insurance thresholds to get jobs. If they pay for 5 hour in the R44 they can get a SFAR 73 signoff as a commercial pilot to fly that and 25 hours and a CFI and they cang get an SFAR 73 signoff to instruct. This is to meet the FAA requirements and then there are the insurance requirements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjsemperfi Posted September 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2012 Damn, $2500 bucks an hour, and I thought our 206's were expensive! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avbug Posted September 27, 2012 Report Share Posted September 27, 2012 Twenty five hundred isn't bad. We were working alongside some guard UH-60's this summer that had a compensation exchange of about sixty five hundred an hour, for their time, fully crewed. Skycranes used to get about nine grand an hour. I believe it's about twelve now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Posted September 27, 2012 Report Share Posted September 27, 2012 Here is what the Feds will pay. http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/contracting/helicopters_exclu/flt_chrt_awarded_05-07.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avbug Posted September 27, 2012 Report Share Posted September 27, 2012 Those numbers aren't really accurate as to what's being paid (the new reference, more current is http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/contracting/helicopters_cwn/flt_chrt_awarded_2011-2013.pdf) They don't represent the contracted values, nor the fluctuations that take place depending on pre or post season, or exclusive use vs. CWN. Actual contract rates vary. Adjustments are made for fuel price changes during the contracting periods (corrected quarterly). A copy of the CWN contract, blank without any specific aircraft plugged in, may be viewed here: http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/contracting/helicopters_cwn/helicopter_contract_cwn.pdf It's worth looking over if someone hasn't been involved in the business, as it gives some idea of the complexity of the arrangements with the government. A list of resources and some of their flight rates, by aircraft and company, may be viewed here: http://amd.nbc.gov/source/AirMulti.asp You'll notice, for example, that whereas the USFS list cites an AS350B2 at $1,045 an hour, Coastal Helicopters has them at $1,809 an hour. Whereas the USFS paper lists a B206BIII at $800 an hour, Aspen Helicopters has it for $975.00. http://amd.nbc.gov/apmd/cwn/Library/3+Rev+16+2012+ON+CALL+CONTRACT+AIRCRAFT+AND+PRICING+INFORMATION+EFFECTIVE+May+1+2012.pdf This sheet shows a 206L3, for example, with a flight rate of $941/hr: the actual daily rate for the aircraft, whether it flies or not, is $3,900. If the aircraft is used outside the contract period for project work, the flight rate jumps up to $1,700 hourly. Note that other items, such as the pilot pay at the top of the page (extended standby) for any hour over 9 hours in a day, is what the government pays the company for the pilot being available during that time. Some companies give that directly to the pilot. Others keep part of that money. The government doesn't care: it pays the contractor, and doesn't get involved in what the contractor pays the pilot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
palmfish Posted September 27, 2012 Report Share Posted September 27, 2012 Oh no worries. I know, everyone thinks I'm crazy for wanting to fly UH-1's. I just love them, rode on them in the Corps and can't get em out of my head. Like I said, I might fly them one day and discover they're not for me, but I'm sure as hell going to try to fly one. I see what you're saying, and my vocab is definitely lacking. Sorry about that. The UH-1 is an iconic heicopter so I hope you get to fly one someday - just so you can say you did it. As helicopters go though, it's really nothing special. It's kind of like a flying 68 Buick Electra. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjsemperfi Posted September 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2012 The UH-1 is an iconic heicopter so I hope you get to fly one someday - just so you can say you did it. As helicopters go though, it's really nothing special. It's kind of like a flying 68 Buick Electra. Haha, noted. I just love old stuff I guess. I'd drive a 69's Camaro Z/28 with a cross ram DZ302 before I drove a 2012 Ferrari. Just the way I am. Love the smell of unburnt gas, and getting a workout from backing out of a parking space with no power steering. I was born 40 years too late. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Pig Posted September 27, 2012 Report Share Posted September 27, 2012 (edited) $2500 an hour for a UH1? I know 3 of them here in my area that are supers that go for $1800. he standard H model is about $1500. Their 212s are at about $2200. Curious why $2500 unless they have a serious profit margin factored in. What are their OH-6s going for? Edited September 27, 2012 by Flying Pig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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