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av8rnik

Army Aviators with prior civilian ratings

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For those that went into the aviation ranks in the Army and had civilian ratings before they joined, did you do any civilian flying once you got in?

 

Did you keep your FAA physical current or would a flight school accept an Army Class 1 flight physical if you wanted to get checked out?

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61.23 Medical certificates: Requirement and duration.

 

( b ) Operations not requiring a medical certificate. A person is not required to hold a medical certificate—

 

(9) When a military pilot of the U.S. Armed Forces can show evidence of an up-to-date medical examination authorizing pilot flight status issued by the U.S. Armed Forces and—

(i) The flight does not require higher than a third-class medical certificate; and

(ii) The flight conducted is a domestic flight operation within U.S. airspace.

 

____________________

 

I was only a student pilot when I joined the Army but I had all the requirements done for my fixed wing PPL. I have never forked out the money to get current again and take a check ride and have only flown civilian once since joining and I didn't pay for it. I do have quite a few friends that still fly regularly though. Personally I am just happy to fly and be paid for it.

Edited by SBuzzkill
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Aside from medical certificate, I've been told that the annual APART can substitute for your pilot certificate's biennial review requirement. I haven't looked into it myself, but I'm curious as to how it'd be done if it is indeed true.

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Aside from medical certificate, I've been told that the annual APART can substitute for your pilot certificate's biennial review requirement. I haven't looked into it myself, but I'm curious as to how it'd be done if it is indeed true.

 

Except, of course, for R22s.

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Aside from medical certificate, I've been told that the annual APART can substitute for your pilot certificate's biennial review requirement. I haven't looked into it myself, but I'm curious as to how it'd be done if it is indeed true.

 

61.56 Flight review.

 

 

(d) A person who has, within the period specified in paragraph © of this section, passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a pilot certificate, rating, or operating privilege need not accomplish the flight review required by this section.

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As stated above; your Army Class 1, while more in depth than the Civilian First Class, only counts towards a Civ Third Class.

 

Not only does your APART count toward your Biennial, your IPC also keeps you IFR current if you have such rating.

 

I flew while in, even CFI'd on the side. Got out and flew airlines a short bit.. All because ofmthemhours accumulated on the side.

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Thanks wopilot and SBuzzkill.

 

As far as the APART counting toward the biennial + instrument currency, Sec. 61.56(2)(d), talks about a logbook endorsement. I've yet to have my first APART -- so I'm in the dark as far as how you get yourself endorsed since it most likely won't be a logbook. Does one just keep a current Army flight record on-hand as a substitute for a logbook endorsement?

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Thanks wopilot and SBuzzkill.

 

As far as the APART counting toward the biennial + instrument currency, Sec. 61.56(2)(d), talks about a logbook endorsement. I've yet to have my first APART -- so I'm in the dark as far as how you get yourself endorsed since it most likely won't be a logbook. Does one just keep a current Army flight record on-hand as a substitute for a logbook endorsement?

 

Yup, just get a print out and you are good to go.

 

If one brings me a print out, I usually just ask a few basic questions to see that they know what they are talking about and endorse it for them, that way if they go to a new flight school/FBO that doesn't have military experience, they don't get the questions or run around.

Edited by wopilot

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that brings up another question i was wondering about. As a military pilot, do you keep a logbook or are your hours tracked some other way?

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that brings up another question i was wondering about. As a military pilot, do you keep a logbook or are your hours tracked some other way?

 

Until a military aviator steps in, I would suggest that you maintain a civilian logbook concurrently with any military/Army flight log because some things are logged differently, I believe, or not logged at all in the Army (cross country, PIC, etc). Think of columns in your civilian logbook that you'll need if you intend to apply for a civilian helicopter job after you separate, such as Night, NVG, XC, PIC, Night XC, etc.

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We do have our hours tracked. Keeping a logbook is a good thing as well.

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The Army will track your hours but it's not a bad idea to keep your own logbook anyway. Logging it IAW FAR 61 is a good idea if you ever plan on flying in the civilian world again, but you also want to keep track of your time logged by Army standards because flight ops WILL lose track of 10-25% of your time. Unless you just don't care about how many hours you've logged, you'll need to track it yourself.

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Yes, keep a separate log. As said above, hours will all of a sudden go missing.

 

It's also easier on civilian counter parts to look at and understand.

 

Keep night unaided and aided separately, track cross country, as well as approaches done.

 

Ask for a print out regularly and cross check.

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Your annual Army flight physical does substitute for an FAA Third Class medical. Keep a copy of you physical paper clipped in the back of your logbook.

 

Your annual APART check-ride (both standards and instrument) can count for your BFR in that particular type and category (rotorcraft instrument). Log the flights in your logbook and also paper-clip a photo copy of your APART close-out in the back near the "endorsements" section.

 

As a civilian airplane and helicopter CFI, I'm also a partner in an FBO, scenic flight business and fly UH-1s, MD-500s, and an AH-1 for a civilian company on the side. I end up giving classes almost quarterly to Army aviators who are getting our, retiring, etc buy have never kept a civilian logbook. You haven't seen a mess until you've sat at a table for almost 2 weeks straight with a 25 year CW5, with over 5,000 hours, none of it logged (per Pt 61) except on his Army 759 forms, and he needs it broken down into civilian accepted times for a new job.

 

I kick back a couple of military resumes for civilian helicopter jobs because they don't meet the insurance minimums, when in actuality they probably well exceed the requirements, they just

don't have it broken down properly.

 

The best advice I can give is to keep a logbook from the day you start flight school, update it daily after you fly and log your flights as per FAR Pt 61 "logging flight time" standards as it applies to PIC time. AR 95-1 states you log PIC time when you are designated as a PC, Pt 61 states you should log PIC time "Anytime you are the sole manipulator of the controls in an aircraft for which you are properly rated". For someone like Lindsey who is already rated in rotorcraft, she would log PIC time in her personal logbook the first day she pulls pitch in the TH-67. Everyone else can start logging PIC the day they pass their P2 check-ride (or whatever they're calling it in primary now)

 

Conversely, if you go on to fly 47s, you can't legally log PIC until you graduate from FS 21 because in the civilian world it requires a Type Rating (BV-234). You can also get that added to your existing license when you get winged. The UH-60s used to have a type (S-70) but they did away with it a decade or so ago.

 

Bottom line, keep a logbook, 20 years down the road you'll be so glad you did and it's the easiest way to make sure your annual 759 close-out isn't missing any hours.

 

Lastly, if you have prior flight time in anything, keep it to yourself and enjoy primary. I had the privilege of working with a couple of UND ROTC grads who were very vocal about being able to skip primary, instruments and go straight to BCS. My thought to them was "Gee, you're kind of a dummy, you just gave up almost a hundred hours of free turbine B-206 time and you could've been the Honor Grad...." That comment can only be appreciated by someone who has had to pay fro their own flight training.

 

MR-

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It's always a good idea to track your own hours in a logbook. For some reason my military tracker blanked a few years back, resulting in me have zero hours on record. Luckily, I had a logbook, to include my annual close-outs, for them to use in rebuilding my hours. With the military don't trust anyone but yourself when it comes to paperwork.

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Everyone else can start logging PIC the day they pass their P2 check-ride (or whatever they're calling it in primary now)

 

I think you need to get all the way through flight school before you can log PIC time under that rule. You're not rated by the Army until you pin on your wings.

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Under Pt 61, if you were a civilian student pilot you would legally log PIC time after you had completed your solo, and every time you were the sole manipulator of the controls after that.

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Under Pt 61, if you were a civilian student pilot you would legally log PIC time after you had completed your solo, and every time you were the sole manipulator of the controls after that.

 

You log PIC as a civilian student pilot only when you are solo. After you complete your PPL, then PIC can be logged (with certain stipulations, but generally). Otherwise, you are not considered the sole manipulator of the controls as you are receiving dual instruction as a non-rated pilot.

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You log PIC as a civilian student pilot only when you are solo. After you complete your PPL, then PIC can be logged (with certain stipulations, but generally). Otherwise, you are not considered the sole manipulator of the controls as you are receiving dual instruction as a non-rated pilot.

 

True, hoever it's not exactly an apples-to-apples comparison. After your checkride in the 67, you can then log PIC every time you touch the controls. After you actually make PC as oer AR 95-1 it gets a blurry as much of the time you're not on the controls in you have a new PI.

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True, hoever it's not exactly an apples-to-apples comparison. After your checkride in the 67, you can then log PIC every time you touch the controls. After you actually make PC as oer AR 95-1 it gets a blurry as much of the time you're not on the controls in you have a new PI.

 

Roger, I was just referring to the logging of civilian time for civilian training. I bet there's something out there that lays it out exactly. I wonder if different FSDOs have different interpretations of the military conversion, specifically what you referred to as the blurry/gray area.

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True, hoever it's not exactly an apples-to-apples comparison. After your checkride in the 67, you can then log PIC every time you touch the controls. After you actually make PC as oer AR 95-1 it gets a blurry as much of the time you're not on the controls in you have a new PI.

 

If you're logging PC time IAW AR 95-1 you can log the entire flight as PIC IAW FAR 61.51 ("acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required"). Yes, that means for most flights you can have both pilots logging PIC time as far as the FAA is concerned. That's spelled out pretty clearly though. What's not clear is how you're logging PIC time after your primary checkride. I've never seen a reference that supports that.

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It does take some interpretation using 61 as a guide and applying ti to the most common scenario in primary. If you just used the worse case scenario and just logged all of flight school as dual received you're only missing out on a hundred or so hours.

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Just to clarify some things.

 

First, your APART in a helicopter DOES count towards the Part 61.56 Flight Review requirement. It actually waives the requirement to even do a BFR IAW the exemption Part 61.56 (D). Also it is not category specific, so if you have an airplane PPL, your helicopter APART will exempt you from the flight review requirement in an airplane. Of course all of this must be within a 24 month calender period. Also no entry from your IP is necessary in your civilian logbook.

 

Your instrument eval in the Army is a different case however. IAW Part 61.57 (d) this IS category specific. Your instrument eval conducted by an IFE can only be used for that category (rotorcraft). It has to mirror the FAA PTS requirements as well. The IE would also have to make an entry in their logbook showing compliance with 61.57. This entry is referenced from FAA AC-61.65E. I've never had to make the entry because the the flying we do in the Army generally makes us current IAW 61.57 recency requirements. Also most Army guys aren't flying civilian helos IFR in their spare time.

 

As far as logging PIC. I wouldn't log it as a student. You could debate that you have the solo endorsement required by 61.87 and are undergoing training for a pilot certificate. I think that would be a stretch of the rules though. You would be completely legal to log it when your a qualified PI flying in the Army. You would be legal under 61.51 (e) (1) (i). Realize though this doesn't apply to your military logging purposes. You would be logged as a PI and not PC. A briefed PC can log the entire time PIC flying because of AR95-1 and IAW 61.51 (e) (1) (iii). Now don't think as a PI flying Black Hawks and logging PIC in your civilian logbook will help get you a job when you get out either. My employer and most others, want briefed PIC and not "sole manipulator of the controls" PIC. I was asked in my interview "That's briefed Army PIC correct?"

 

Good idea to keep a civilian logbook. Your 759 nor your -12 print outs meet the Part 61 requirements for logging flight time. If you lose your civilian logbook, (I did retirement move) then you have plenty of proof to create a new one with your military records. I will say some employers don't even look at your civilian logbbok. Some just want to see a 759 print out. Helicopter aviation is a small world and they know from friends if you even meet their hour requirements. That's what networking is all about. Your reputation preceeds you. For those who might roll the dice and hope the employer doesn't look at a logbook or a 759 in hopes of getting a job, think again. You'll get two sets of paperwork after getting hired. One from the FAA and one from the employer's insurance company. These both have similar statements to the effect that if you are lying about your hours you can be proscecuted.

 

Make sure you all get your rotorcraft commercial instrument ticket at Rucker once you pass your instrument ride.

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