Jump to content

What do you do if the operator is breaking the law?


Recommended Posts

Does anybody think that pilots WANT to fly over mgw or bad mags or etc...? We're usually talking about lower time guys with not much experience in the industry except what they see at their "school" which is usually just a mirror of most of the operators out there.

Most people want to do what is right... alot of people try really hard to hold to their "morals".... a few people easily change their mind when under pressure....

 

Luckily I have no desire to fly for anyone but me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It really scares me that so many pilots will take a position of flying over MGW, or with a bad mag, or an un-airworthy aircraft and somehow justify their position and attitude.

 

It also surprises me that they will openly post in on an internet forum for employers to read.

 

Employers want to hire pilots that will protect their aircraft, passengers and Protect the Sacred Trust.

 

Employers want professionals with integrity.

 

At Heli Success last year, one HR person had a bullet point of "Integrity means doing the right thing when no one is looking". I added that "Professionalism is doing the right thing when you do not want to".

 

If you ever wish to work in the industry for major employers, be careful what you post here that does not adhere to Integrity and Professionalism. Do you really have to ask what to do?

 

When used as a reference for pilots and asked by the future employer about them, my best recommendation is that "I would let them fly my family everyday".

 

Mark, is this pilot pool that you get to choose from scary or what?

 

Mike

 

This thread is about operators who are breaking the law. They are the ones insisting that their pilots fly over MGW, with a possible bad mag, or any other unairworthy crap!

 

Employers want pilots who will "protect the sacred trust"?,...well it goes both ways!, and in these cases its the employer who is breaking that trust!

 

What's that 400hr pilot supposed to do when its HIS BOSS who's overloading his R44! Spend the rest of his life flipping burgers because the ONLY job he could find after 2 years of searching involves working for an a**hole!

 

First look for another job, then get the hell out of that bad one!,...and hope your next employer cares more about his pilots than making money! That's really all us "dime a dozen" low timers can do!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This thread is about operators who are breaking the law. They are the ones insisting that their pilots fly over MGW, with a possible bad mag, or any other unairworthy crap! So I guess the pilots that act as PIC are not at fault because the operator "insists"?



Employers want pilots who will "protect the sacred trust"?,...well it goes both ways!, and in these cases its the employer who is breaking that trust! The employer is trying to get a PIC to do it, your choice Mr. PIC. Ask yourself how you will explain this in a civil court if you survive and some of your pax do not? "Well, the operator insisted I fly it this way", will that be your reply. There is no logical justification for doing this!



What's that 400hr pilot supposed to do when its HIS BOSS who's overloading his R44! Spend the rest of his life flipping burgers because the ONLY job he could find after 2 years of searching involves working for an a**hole! Ever ask yourself why he hired you? I guess if someone does not work as a pilot he must flip burgers for the REST of life. I apologize as I did not know that was etched in stone and there are no alternatives for the rest of your life. What if all pilots just refused to act illegally and accept this as a way to fly? Would the operator be in business? Do not blame an operator for your decision! This thread is about the PIC that chooses to act with disregard for PIC responsibilities.



First look for another job, then get the hell out of that bad one!,...and hope your next employer cares more about his pilots than making money! That's really all us "dime a dozen" low timers can do! Here is your reinforcing attitude of endangering people and then looking for another job. The industry sure wants to hire you now.



To Apia Guy, it is the internet & many low time pilots come here looking for advice. What do we offer them if not Integrity & Professionalism? My efforts off of the internet are recognized and supported so call me what you like. If I can reach/save one pilot from killing themselves or their pax, I am happy.



Guys, be responsible.



Mike



Just thought of the NTSB wording, "Operator insisted, PIC had no other job, did not want to flip burgers for life, repeatedly decided to possibly harm/kill everyone and was successful"


Edited by Mikemv
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just wanted to say WHOA !

 

How did a bad fuel gauge turn into over max gross weight, bad mags and integrity !?!

 

Okay real life scenario here -

 

Working in middle of nowhere, alternator light stays on, its checked and found to be working correctly but alas the lamp is on. The part is a week away and a licensed A & P is a month away from returning. Tour season is only four months long - what do you do ?

 

The operator is willing to fix it but as said parts and labor are a week and month away respectively.

The aircraft works perfectly in every respect except for the warning lamp.

So at the end of the day it is clearly not a safety issue, so what to you do ? (both seasoned and newbies?)

 

PS - this is in R44 Raven II no MEL if I remember correctly...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guys, for being a douche, I apologize but please make good decisions about your own life and the lives of others.

 

We lost AD Ridge a year ago yesterday and I still feel for the industry's loss of a young pilot.

 

I am sincere in my counseling of pilots and know we find ourselves in tough spots. Ask yourself, is it worth your life or another life?

 

Make good decisions and live.

 

Sincerely,

 

Mike

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Words can get mixed up, pretty easily in fact.

 

I don't think maybe some of the more seasoned guys understand wholly the kind of pressure some people are under.

 

The current cost of obtaining CFII tickets are easily hitting 80 to 100 thousand dollars.

 

These operators may be dirtbags through and through but they also have to power to potentially sink someone's career.

 

The problem isn't the pilot's integrity the problem is the FAA calls the Operator and says "I'll be by on Tuesday" and on that Tuesday all the Operator's books are in order, sometimes even by way of Parker Pen. The integrity issue lies with the dirtbag Operator that pressures these debt-ridden poverty stricken minimum wage employees and coerces them into being a "team player or else" attitude. Yes the PIC has the authority until the dirtbag overrides it, gets someone else to do it, fires you, etc, etc, etc..

 

Here's a thought... how about the IHST or HAI or someone adds a support network to assist the understaffed FAA (or worse FAA employees in collusion with their good old buddy the dirt bag operator) investigate anonymous tips about dirtbag operators ?

Edited by Rogue
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Words can get mixed up, pretty easily in fact.

 

I don't think maybe some of the more seasoned guys understand wholly the kind of pressure some people are under.

 

The current cost of obtaining CFII tickets are easily hitting 80 to 100 thousand dollars.

 

These operators may be dirtbags through and through but they also have to power to potentially sink someone's career.

 

The problem isn't the pilot's integrity the problem is the FAA calls the Operator and says "I'll be by on Tuesday" and on that Tuesday all the Operator's books are in order, sometimes even by way of Parker Pen. The integrity issue lies with the dirtbag Operator that pressures these debt-ridden poverty stricken minimum wage employees and coerces them into being a "team player or else" attitude. Yes the PIC has the authority until the dirtbag overrides it, gets someone else to do it, fires you, etc, etc, etc..

 

Here's a thought... how about the IHST or HAI or someone adds a support network to assist the understaffed FAA (or worse FAA employees in collusion with their good old buddy the dirt bag operator) investigate anonymous tips about dirtbag operators ?

 

I wouldn't bother with HAI, according to an article I read from them recently they still claim there is a pilot shortage which says to me they are completely out of touch with aviation as a low time pilot!

 

As for your malfunctioning alternator lite? As long as the ammeter is still in the green and the alt is working, I'm guessing you can still fly?,...but I could be wrong! Although, how do you know if its working if the A&P isn't there to check it out?

Edited by eagle5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

One other point of order - we shouldn't be discouraging people from talking about what is going on out there in "the real world" for fear of not being employable.

 

We definitely need to know what these dirtbag Operators are up to so that they can be found out and run out out of town.

 

A career path to being a professional pilot should not consist of being extorted by dirtbag operators and people not talking about it for fear of being put out of a job or loss of potential future employment.

Edited by Rogue
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Contrary to popular belief, Eagle5 isn't my real name, so I'm not sure how a prospective employer would know its me who's making these outragious posts? However, if he did find out and doesn't like my honest response as to how I'd handle the Kobiashi Maru, then so be it,...I'll continue flipping burgers! :ph34r: :D

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

However, if he did find out and doesn't like my honest response as to how I'd handle the Kobiashi Maru, then so be it,...I'll continue flipping burgers!

 

Nice, two bonus points for geek reference.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are dirtbag operators who take advantage of inexperienced pilots who don’t know any better…

 

There are also green-horns that post information on this site who’ve never experienced the “real world”..

 

For me, I’m not sure which of the above is worse……

 

I have worked for a couple so-called "dirtbag" operators and I’m a better pilot today because of it…

 

Most who will claw their way up through this business will someday come across these types of dilemmas. It’s how you deal with them at that moment that will make or break your career…..

Edited by Spike
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

I guess you missed post #6? You're a student, I'm unemployed, and he's a guy who's been in commercial aviation for quite a while. I wonder who's right?

 

No, I saw it. And yes, I'm a student. So what? Does that mean I'm incapable of making rational and safe decisions?

 

Just like they say everyone should have personal minimums for flight, you should also have a line you aren't willing to cross or compromise when it comes to operators trying to push you around. That line may be in different places for different things, and it may move as experience is gained, but you shouldn't ever allow someone to push you past it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

No, I saw it. And yes, I'm a student. So what? Does that mean I'm incapable of making rational and safe decisions?

 

No, it means that neither you, nor I really have the experience to say something like "unsafe practices and aviation don't mix", but someone like NR does!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote From Mikemv

 


 

Mark, is this pilot pool that you get to choose from scary or what?

 

Mike

 

I take exception to your characterization of pilots in general. Please point out one instance of a post on this forum that would justify you lumping me into the aforementioned scary pilot pool.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are dirtbag operators who take advantage of inexperienced pilots who don’t know any better…

 

There are also green-horns that post information on this site who’ve never experienced the “real world”..

What is wrong with this exactly ? If their misinformation is truly misinformed it can be discussed and possibly be better of for discussing it, else I miss the point of a discussion forum...

 

For me, I’m not sure which of the above is worse……

obviously the operators...

 

I have worked for a couple so-called "dirtbag" operators and I’m a better pilot today because of it…

Please clarify. Are you saying that an operator that refuses to repair a fuel gauge is in the right ? How about one that urges you to fly over gross ?

 

Most who will claw their way up through this business will someday come across these types of dilemmas. It’s how you deal with them at that moment that will make or break your career…..

and learning what situations are worthy of drawing a line in the sand over is good stuff to know, care to enlighten us ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

apology accepted :)

Guys, for being a douche, I apologize but please make good decisions about your own life and the lives of others.

 

We lost AD Ridge a year ago yesterday and I still feel for the industry's loss of a young pilot.

 

I am sincere in my counseling of pilots and know we find ourselves in tough spots. Ask yourself, is it worth your life or another life?

 

Make good decisions and live.

 

Sincerely,

 

Mike

 

and I agree we need to offer integrity and professionalism... but that can be quickly lost in translation with negative generalizations. Alot of what is lacking is solid teaching at most flight schools.

Edited by apiaguy
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 


No, it means that neither you, nor I really have the experience to say something like "unsafe practices and aviation don't mix", but someone like NR does!

 

Heyyyyy, I never said that. Sounds more like something Avbug would say. I mean, I agree and all...

 

We talk about "operators who pressure pilots to fly overgross." Let's get to one case I'm sort of familiar with. I cannot reveal the specifics without giving away who it is, so I apologize for the vagueness.

 

Apparently there was an operator who booked a flight for three passenger going up for one hour. Total pax weight: let's say 800 pounds. Pilot A who was assigned to take the flight said it was impossible because he'd be overgross. Another pilot was asked to take the flight. Pilot B looked at the numbers and agreed. Pilot B is actually heavier than Pilot A. Apparently, the dispute involved how much fuel was actually required for this flight. Pilot A was unpersuaded that he could do the flight with the amount of fuel that calculates to 1.5 hours.

 

In an informal conversation about this actual scenario (i.e. without getting the calculators out), I suggested that if the flight was legally "do-able" and if Pilot A could not operate the helicopter to its published limits within the RFM and FAR's then he should simply be sent down the road, not merely replaced in this instance. In fact, replacing him empowers him to do the same thing next time he doesn't want to do a particular flight.

 

I suspect that Pilot A right now feels that his employer is pressuring him to fly overgross even though this is not the case as far as I'm aware. (I admit that there may be other issues that were not disclosed, but the case seemed pretty cut-and-dry.)

 

Most things are fairly clear. In this case, the one-hour flight needs 1:20 worth of fuel to be "legal." But landing with :20 of fuel seems awfully skimpy. (Even :30 minutes ain't much.) In a 206, 20 minutes of gas equals about 9 gallons and I *hate* seeing the gage down that low.

 

I haven't really heard of a case where the Chief Pilot actually told a pilot, "You WILL fly overgross!" Usually these situations involve arguable issues like how much fuel a particular pilot "needs" to do a job. In other words, if you're a pilot who needs a 30-minute or one-hour reserve all the time, then this can be a problem down the road. If an operator tells you differently, isn't he being unsafe?

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

NR, up until now I have clearly understood all your posts. This one is throwing me off the scent trail of the quarry. It seems to me that pilot A was not only right, and brave enough to speak up and take a stand, but he was also vindicated by pilot B. Pilot B if both he and pilot A are correct, would only exacerbate the situation. It's not very often that I have seen in aviation where one brave pilot sticks his neck out, and the next doesn't chop it off. If another pilot climbs out on the same seemingly weak limb pilot A has, we should as pilots all celebrate a rare possibly once in a lifetime event.

Not very often in life when you do the right thing, and you are right, are you ever popular concurrently.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

NR, up until now I have clearly understood all your posts. This one is throwing me off the scent trail of the quarry. It seems to me that pilot A was not only right, and brave enough to speak up and take a stand, but he was also vindicated by pilot B. Pilot B if both he and pilot A are correct, would only exacerbate the situation. It's not very often that I have seen in aviation where one brave pilot sticks his neck out, and the next doesn't chop it off. If another pilot climbs out on the same seemingly weak limb pilot A has, we should as pilots all celebrate a rare possibly once in a lifetime event.

Not very often in life when you do the right thing, and you are right, are you ever popular concurrently.

 

Read it again, I believe he meant that Pilot B agreed to take the flight...It threw me off too...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hehehe, not going to dissect this but I think I know about the situation described....

 

It amounts to this - remember when you were in grade school and the teacher had you sit in a semi-circle and would tell the first person in line "green grapes" and by the time it got to the last person it became "yellow bananas"

 

Some basic facts that didn't make it around the semi circle was there was pilot A, B and C. Pilot A that said it could be done no problem weighs 45 and 55 lbs less respectively than B or C. Pilot A ran a W & B with incorrect Basic Empty Weight and incorrect Arm. Issue was being out of Cg as well as overgross and a preferred alternate plan to divert to airstrip and slide it on if necessary was not doable with minimum "legal" fuel load. Neither B or C said it was impossible only that they would NOT do it over max gross as all the numbers were figured with the customer's supplying their own weight figures and only stated to let the customers know that they may only be able to take 2 out of 3 after they were actually weighed (because customers never lie about their weight !).

 

As it turns out, they weighed less than what they said they did (total weight, one actually weighed 15 more than stated but one was 30 pounds less than stated - which was the whole point of the disagreement and that is to never trust what the customer says they weigh !) and it was done no problem - just like it said it would be done if they were NOT over gross. The only real problem was someone trying to armchair quarterback it from 60 miles away, with incorrect facts.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Heyyyyy, I never said that. Sounds more like something Avbug would say. I mean, I agree and all...

 

 

Agree with the unsafe practices line or that no one has the experience to say such a thing?

 

 

My take away from your story was that the flight was below gross so long as the fuel remained below a certain amount, which means the flight was doable. Is that was you were trying to convey?

 

 

In other words, if you're a pilot who needs a 30-minute or one-hour reserve all the time, then this can be a problem down the road. If an operator tells you differently, isn't he being unsafe?

 

Yes and no. That one has to do with personal minimums, though. It goes along with having lines that move as you gain more experience. More fuel the better, but having enough to do the flight plus your reserve doesn't make it unsafe, per say.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay, so you're pulling wire with a 500 and since your are always sideways and at an angle the fuel gauge doesn't read accurate and can't be relied on. Is that unsafe? Or do you just put enough fuel in and then use a timer? One hour, land, get fuel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...