The Entry-Level Pilot's Level of Knowledge,...or lack there of?

[pilot#476398]

This seems like it might be a good topic of its own?

 

I've always been kind of proud of the fact that if tomarrow I had to re-take the oral part of my checkride, I'd pass with no problem at all. In fact I just passed my BFR with flying colors! However I'm getting the impression that that level of knowledge isn't enough,...even for an entry-level pilot?

 

So, to you experienced commercial pilots (and especially those who do the hiring) in what areas of knowledge do you see that the entry-level pilots whom you come across are lacking?,...and don't say grammer!

[Mikemv]

P47,

 

 

You stated "I've always been kind of proud of the fact that if tomarrow I had to re-take the oral part of my checkride, I'd pass with no problem at all. In fact I just passed my BFR with flying colors! However I'm getting the impression that that level of knowledge isn't enough,...even for an entry-level pilot?

So, to you experienced commercial pilots (and especially those who do the hiring) in what areas of knowledge do you see that the entry-level pilots whom you come across are lacking?"

I would like to give a sincere response but I am not sure what you are calling "an entry level pilot". Is this the ab initio student entering training that did or did not research the industry and training? Is this the RH-CFII that has 1,000 to 1,500 hours and looking for a job flying turbines?

Is it a pilot that says he can still pass an oral for a level of certificate ( I truly believe you could) but shows that he has not known that the "B" in BFR has not been there for about 6 years or so? CFR61.56 is a FR (flight review).

I am involved in evaluating pilots for hire, recommending pilots for jobs, upgrading Part 61 training requirements, upgrading PTS, addressing short comings in pilot knowledge, so please define "entry level". This should be a great topic!

[mausermolt]

id rather know what knowledge working commercial pilots are lacking so i can study up!

[Azhigher]

I've seen pilots lose knowledge over time through disuse. More specifically they do tours for years and forget how to do anything other than fly the same route making the same calls over and over.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Azhigher

[pilot#476398]

 

I would like to give a sincere response but I am not sure what you are calling "an entry level pilot". Is this the ab initio student entering training that did or did not research the industry and training? Is this the RH-CFII that has 1,000 to 1,500 hours and looking for a job flying turbines?

Is it a pilot that says he can still pass an oral for a level of certificate ( I truly believe you could) but shows that he has not known that the "B" in BFR has not been there for about 6 years or so? CFR61.56 is a FR (flight review).

I am involved in evaluating pilots for hire, recommending pilots for jobs, upgrading Part 61 training requirements, upgrading PTS, addressing short comings in pilot knowledge, so please define "entry level". This should be a great topic!

 

 

I've been under the impression that entry-level pilots are low-timers like myself (usually below 1000) who have yet to leave the training environment (whether a working cfi, or a job seeker) to enter the "real" world of commercial flying that the experienced guys here talk about?

 

Not to start yet another topic (or revive an old dead horse) but as long as there are pilots who call an unintentional decent due to (essentially) being too heavy, "settling with power", I'm going to keep the "B" in the flight review I do every 2 years! I don't see why they bothered to take "biennial" out of it, but then again I still don't see the point in kicking Pluto out of the planet club!

[Trans Lift]

 

In fact I just passed my BFR with flying colors!

Why? Is there a knowledge test on a BFR?

 

My theoretical knowledge has definitely decreased since becoming a commercial pilot. I'm not afriad to admit it. I know my job well but other areas are definitely lacking!!

[Dnr032]

Edit

[BH206L3]

I didn't know a BFR was Pass/Fail now!

[turbotay]

edit

Edited June 14, 2013 by turbotay

[Counterrotate]

I would say that you always know just enough until you don't. Another way to put it is that experience usually comes right after you needed it. There is no possible way to train pilots in flight school in all the areas that they need to be successful in this industry. Those lessons come along the way, and it is a long journey. Since I started, I have seen the training industry change, and at the same time, stay the same. Shortcomings and strengths have shifted. Paradigms have reversed, and then reversed again. The flavour of the week is always changing. But pilots coming out of flight school now are no better, or worse, than they ever were in my opinion. I think the accident rates reflect that. I am all for what guys like Mike Franz are doing to revamp the flight training section and make the PTS standards more focused on decision making as that is, and always has been a weak area. However, even with this change in focus from flying ability to the analytical process, it will only provide a base-line level of knowledge. A foundation upon which to build experience and knowledge. One of the things that I love about these machines is that they are so incredibly complicated, and this industry is so diverse, that you could spend 30 or 40 years in it, and never stop learning. The only thing that irks me, is that most of that hard earned knowledge will never be shared, and so the trial and error (often peppered with accidents and fatalities) is repeated again and again as the next season of new pilots moves in to fill the vacant slots. If there was a way we could bring that operational expertise to the training environment, that would definitely improve this industry. I have always seen this industry as @$$ backwards. The myopic leading the blind. Feeling their way through the danger. As a young flight instructor, I came back from every flight relieved that I didn't screw up major. That feeling doesn't abate. Now that I am flying bigger and badder hardware, I am always very aware of how easy it would be to destroy it all in the blink of an eye. And I still scare myself sometimes. It's a process that doesn't end. Get used to it.

[avbug]

I've always been kind of proud of the fact that if tomarrow I had to re-take the oral part of my checkride, I'd pass with no problem at all. In fact I just passed my BFR with flying colors! However I'm getting the impression that that level of knowledge isn't enough,...even for an entry-level pilot?

 

 

There's only so much you can learn in class and in your initial flight training. A certain amount of your learning will be on the job, and a certain amount based on experience.

 

No doubt you're familiar with the term that your pilot certificate is a license to learn.

 

It's just the beginning. If you do hit a point where you feel you've learned enough, it's time to pull the plug and call it quits, or do some serious re-evaluation.

[Rogue]

I was going to blah, blah, blah a bunch of crap but.... to put it quite simply -

 

I know 3 people, all "low" hours, that all were given opportunities that 100 people in line would all kill for - opportunities usually reserved for people with 3 times as many hours.

 

The one thing they all have in common is not how great stick skills they are, its how much total knowledge they have and not even "helicopter" related knowledge per say. Knowledge about the local area we are giving tours in.

 

Then there are some employees who listen to their Zulu 2 Bluetooth music instead of talking to the tour customers, don't know the first thing about the local area to tell the customer about, don't' sit on the crapper and read about a 206 handbook after hours and then sit around and complain that they don't get the opportunities that people with half the hours are getting.

 

So the choice is yours - do the bare minimum and watch others get the opportunities that you want or you can go above and beyond and people will recognize that.

 

Cry foul, unfair and not my job all you want - tough sh*t, thats how it works.

[rick1128]

The last couple of years at HeliExpo, I spent time talking with several different operators about what issues they are having with the new pilots coming in. It was interesting.

 

One operator was a Corporate operator with some passenger charter. His issue was that his helicopter guys were not up on manners like they really needed to be. They were good sticks but the passengers were not happy with how the pilot behaved. All these passengers were high worth persons.

 

Another operator had issues with how long it took some of the new guys to plan and get ready for a simple trip. A simple one hour flight along an interstate was taking them over an hour.

 

Others felt that the new pilots had problems navigating without a GPS. GPSs can and do fail or give wrong information. The trip will not cancel because the GPS doesn't work.

 

As I have mentioned before, a lot of this job is the small stuff. That's what makes a pilot stand out in the pilot crowd.

[SBuzzkill]

Ah yes, corporate customers. Having seen that world from the ground service perspective I know how picky some of those guys can be. I have no problem with courtesies however seeking work in that sector will not be my first choice

Edited June 14, 2013 by SBuzzkill

[Spike]

I didn't know a BFR was Pass/Fail now!

 

A good example of the question at hand…..

[pilot#476398]

In fact I just passed my BFR with flying colors!

I didn't know a BFR was Pass/Fail now!

 

 

The point of that statement was that I've kept up with my ground knowledge to the point where I had no difficulty answering any of the questions put to me during my BFR. I don't really know what a cfi would do if the pilot they were "reviewing" was struggling to answer his questions? Not give him the endorsement without further lessons perhaps?

 

I'm pretty sure though that an employer would simply not offer him the job!

[helonorth]

 

A good example of the question at hand…..

A Flight Review (it's not a BFR) can most certainly be "failed". If you cannot properly demonstrate the knowledge and airmanship, the CFI is not obligated to sign you off. I went on and airplane flight review quite a few years ago. We were doing slow flight turns. The airplane started to shutter at the edge of a stall. The instructor said I had stalled the airplane and that we were done flying and he would not endorse me. Now I thought this was pretty chickenshit thing for him to do, since I didn't even stall the airplane (and what if I had? Was this a check ride?) but oh well. We flew the next day, I'm sure I did my slow flight turns with a little more airspeed and he deemed me good for two more years. Maybe I didn't fail it, but I sure as hell didn't pass it!

Edited June 14, 2013 by helonorth

[Spike]

A Flight Review (it's not a BFR) can most certainly be "failed". If you cannot properly demonstrate the knowledge and airmanship, the CFI is not obligated to sign you off. I went on and airplane flight review quite a few years ago. We were doing slow flight turns. The airplane started to shutter at the edge of a stall. The instructor said I had stalled the airplane and that we were done flying and he would not endorse me. Now I thought this was pretty chickenshit thing for him to do, since I didn't even stall the airplane (and what if I had? Was this a check ride?) but oh well. We flew the next day, I'm sure I did my slow flight turns with a little more airspeed and he deemed me good for two more years. Maybe I didn't fail it, but I sure as hell didn't pass it!

 

The statement was; “In fact I just passed my BFR with flying colors!”. BFR i.e. Biannual Flight Review (FAR PART 61.56). This is technically a incorrect statement and this exact topic commonly discussed, in detail, at HAI FIRC’s. Pilots do not "pass" or "fail" BFR’s, regardless of what it feels like. If they do not comply with the requirements of 61.56, they simply do not receive the endorsement. Flight instructors do not have the authority to “fail” a pilot. They can just refuse to indorse.....

Edited June 14, 2013 by Spike

[helonorth]

My FAR AIM doesn't mention a biannual flight review. And it wouldn't since, "biannual" means twice a year. It doesn't even mention "biennial", either, though. And that even means once every two years. So okay, if it makes you feel better, the instructor cannot not "fail" you, you just don't get a signature. And if you did perform satisfactorily on your Flight Review, you didn't necessarily "pass" it, you...well...I don't know what you just did. But you can go fly for two more years.

Edited June 14, 2013 by helonorth

[pilot#476398]

Its called a BFR out of habit! A lot of us still do it, just like when I say I'm going to "tape" the game while I'm out,...its a DVR, I know there is no tape! I doubt the younger generation will still say things like this,...until they get older and the names of the things they're used to change!

 

As for, "I passed my BFR"! Its a f*cking expression, get over it! Damn! The things you people choose to focus on!

[helonorth]

Call it whatever you want, but for whatever reason, BFR just won't die. I was just trying to illustrate a point: if you're gonna nitpick, have your own ducks in a row!

[Rogue]

Well the topic at hand was "entry level pilot's level of knowledge....or lack there of?"

 

Calling a BFR a BFR when it is no longer a BFR demonstrates the lack of knowledge there of, so maybe, just maybe you should do some more aviation reading whilst sitting on the throne.

 

As pointed out to you already, the ones that succeed in this business stay current and on point but hey what do I know I'm just a working pilot...

[Spike]

Call it whatever you want, but for whatever reason, BFR just won't die. I was just trying to illustrate a point: if you're gonna nitpick, have your own ducks in a row!

 

You are correct in your assertion. However, I was commenting on what the OP said. Specifically a flight review (refered to by the OP as a BFR) which needs to be conducted every 24 months is not a pass/fail scenario…. Ducks in a row….

 

To the OP: you asked a question with a perfect example of what is lacking with “entry level” pilots and then provide an even better example of what is WRONG with “entry level” pilots… IMO, from this point on, you get what you deserve…..

 

Edited June 14, 2013 by Spike

[helipilotm]

Its called a BFR out of habit! A lot of us still do it, just like when I say I'm going to "tape" the game while I'm out,...its a DVR, I know there is no tape! I doubt the younger generation will still say things like this,...until they get older and the names of the things they're used to change!

 

As for, "I passed my BFR"! Its a f*cking expression, get over it! Damn! The things you people choose to focus on!

The way I'm seeing this post...

You pretty much bragged about getting a sign off for your flight review. Then asked what were things pilots were lacking. Then complain about people correcting you. If your going to tslk the talk do it of course you would know that because you "passed" your BFR. Aviation has a ton of terms, abbreviations etc... Get it right or don't

[Spike]

The way I'm seeing this post...

You pretty much bragged about getting a sign off for your flight review. Then asked what were things pilots were lacking. Then complain about people correcting you. If your going to tslk the talk do it of course you would know that because you "passed" your BFR. Aviation has a ton of terms, abbreviations etc... Get it right or don't

 

Couldn’t have said it better myself….