Army Cutting 10 BCTs; Army Aviation Unscathed... For Now

[Velocity173]

 

It's also an envy of many Marine aviators. Staying in the cockpit for an entire career would be the first choice of many, but our career progression model doesn't provide that opportunity that often if at all. Hence also the reason why our current Commandant is an also now an Aviator.

I hear ya. Went flying in an H-53 at Miramar just after I got picked up. I sat in the jump seat between the pilots so I could get a good view of things. Had a MAJ (XO) and a Captain up front. They both expressed a bit of envy about me going WOFT. The MAJ even said something to the effect that I was lucky. "You'll actually be flying, unlike us." Didn't realize the difference was so great at the time because I really knew very little about Army Aviation. In reality though if it wasn't for the fact that I became an IP, I really wouldn't have gotten that many hours over them.

 

Used to talk to then COL Amos back in the 90s when I worked approach control at NBC. I guess there was a lot of controversy on choosing the first Marine Aviator as Commandant. Everyone was ticked they didn't go with Mattis. I was actually glad to hear you all finally got an aviator in there. I've heard good things about Gen Amos and that he's a good leader / pilot. Like the Army, when you have a service comprised mostly of ground pounders, you're not going to get a favorable opinion from its people.

Edited June 28, 2013 by Velocity173

[ftxag76]

That's a pretty open question. For those going to Rucker nothing really changes. The program the guys are in now is the same one you'll go through. While cutbacks have affected Rucker, as a student you won't see any difference.

 

It's not doom and gloom here either. You all are just joining the Army during a drawdown. These are times of budget restrictions and you simply won't have an unlimited budget like we had years ago. You do your job and make the best of the situation. Even though your primary job is to fly, for the next several years hours will be sparse. For some of you life in the Army will be disappointing.

 

We can tell you all day what it's like as a Warrant but you really won't know until you're in. I can tell you in my class of street to seaters only a few stayed in after 6 yrs. They were simply tired of the BS and went on to CBP, LE, EMS and Oil & Gas. Those of us that were prior enlisted pretty much were obligated to stay in after 6 to get retirement.

 

Today, I see a lot of guys trying to stay in. Not sure if they're worried about the civilian hiring situation or they just want to stay for the benefits and really like Army life. There is a daily grind as an Army Aviator. At your 6 yr mark you ask yourself is this really what you want to do with your life or not. We all have our reasons to stay or go.

My next question would be. What are the salaries like on the civilian side, particularly EMS and oil and gas .

 

Also if you opt out after 6yrs can you revert to a reserve unit or natl guard unit to continue your retirement?

[Velocity173]

My next question would be. What are the salaries like on the civilian side, particularly EMS and oil and gas .

 

Also if you opt out after 6yrs can you revert to a reserve unit or natl guard unit to continue your retirement?

I don't get paid crap for EMS. Seriously I get paid about 60 grand a year. Even with retirement I make a few hundred less per month than when i was a CW3. The difference is night and day though. Life as an EMS pilot is like a breath of fresh air. Easiest job in the world and none of the additional duties or stress of the Army. I'm actually just starting my first day off for the week. 7 on and 7 off is like taking 2 vacations a month. Sure the job has some demanding flying and our accident rate aint the best, but whatever, far more dangerous things to do in life. Oh yeah, single pilot is awesome.

 

The market for those getting out with the magical 2,000 + hrs is wide open. I basically decided whether to choose money (overseas contract) or location (EMS). I always tell my friends that are getting out that if there's a particular spot you want to settle down at, you can bet there's an EMS opening there. My current job was the only one I even applied for and I had an interview maybe a week after initial contact. I picked somewhere I wanted to live and went there.

 

Oil and Gas depends on the airframe you get out of the Army with. If you're a 58 dude then most likely you'll be starting in a 407 making 60 grand a year. If your a 60 guy then you can roll into an S76 or S92 IFR position making well over 100 grand. I have a few friends who went the later route but it's just not for me. Don't want to live in that area and I don't want to live somewhere else and be gone 6 mths out of the year by commuting to the Gulf. Finally, seeing water all day would get old. Oh yeah, you'll fly about 500 hrs a year in the Gulf compared to about 150 hrs in EMS. Since I really don't care about building time anymore, flight time isn't high on my list these days. Quality over quantity. Plus I fly fixedwing on my days off to quench any yearning to be airborne.

 

Don't know about the NG and Reserves. Only know one guy who left active to go Reserve. He did it primarily because the post was next to where he grew up in Florida. I believe since he's full time he can still retire after 20. Not sure though.

Edited June 28, 2013 by Velocity173

[d10]

5 yrs later in 2006 as an instructor, we had over 30 students per class.

 

I might have flown with you once. I went through the tactical part of the 60 course without a full time instructor so I got a day with just about everyone.

[av8rnik]

Rumor we are hearing right now is that instructors will go to a 4 day week starting FY14. But just like every other rumor, can't trust it till it actually happens.

[ftxag76]

I don't get paid crap for EMS. Seriously I get paid about 60 grand a year. Even with retirement I make a few hundred less per month than when i was a CW3. The difference is night and day though. Life as an EMS pilot is like a breath of fresh air. Easiest job in the world and none of the additional duties or stress of the Army. I'm actually just starting my first day off for the week. 7 on and 7 off is like taking 2 vacations a month. Sure the job has some demanding flying and our accident rate aint the best, but whatever, far more dangerous things to do in life. Oh yeah, single pilot is awesome.

 

The market for those getting out with the magical 2,000 + hrs is wide open. I basically decided whether to choose money (overseas contract) or location (EMS). I always tell my friends that are getting out that if there's a particular spot you want to settle down at, you can bet there's an EMS opening there. My current job was the only one I even applied for and I had an interview maybe a week after initial contact. I picked somewhere I wanted to live and went there.

 

Oil and Gas depends on the airframe you get out of the Army with. If you're a 58 dude then most likely you'll be starting in a 407 making 60 grand a year. If your a 60 guy then you can roll into an S76 or S92 IFR position making well over 100 grand. I have a few friends who went the later route but it's just not for me. Don't want to live in that area and I don't want to live somewhere else and be gone 6 mths out of the year by commuting to the Gulf. Finally, seeing water all day would get old. Oh yeah, you'll fly about 500 hrs a year in the Gulf compared to about 150 hrs in EMS. Since I really don't care about building time anymore, flight time isn't high on my list these days. Quality over quantity. Plus I fly fixedwing on my days off to quench any yearning to be airborne.

 

Don't know about the NG and Reserves. Only know one guy who left active to go Reserve. He did it primarily because the post was next to where he grew up in Florida. I believe since he's full time he can still retire after 20. Not sure though.

I appreciate the insight! I might PM you later in the day for some more in depth question!

[SBuzzkill]

So far this year it has been a struggle to get in the cockpit. I'll leave it at that. Don't join the Army if you want to build flight time. I still love my job though. Love it. Love it. Love it.

 

Now, I'm off to enter a bunch of stuff into DTMS. LoL! Just kidding I'm at home with a glass of bourbon. After a day of DTMS... And a no-notice.

Edited June 28, 2013 by SBuzzkill

[ftxag76]

Too late now. Already got accepted. Have to be honest with you guys the current facts that you're presenting to us is very depressing.

[SBuzzkill]

By the time you get out of flight school we should be back to flying regularly. You will certainly get your fill of flying while you're there. But don't expect to walk out at the end of your 8 years invested with 2,000 hours. On the bright side you will be making lots of money and you can spend that renting aircraft if you want.

 

I'm spending my money sending my wife to school so she can make the money and I can be a helicopter bum

Edited June 28, 2013 by SBuzzkill

[Hotdogs]

Oil and Gas depends on the airframe you get out of the Army with. If you're a 58 dude then most likely you'll be starting in a 407 making 60 grand a year. If your a 60 guy then you can roll into an S76 or S92 IFR position making well over 100 grand. I have a few friends who went the later route but it's just not for me. Don't want to live in that area and I don't want to live somewhere else and be gone 6 mths out of the year by commuting to the Gulf. Finally, seeing water all day would get old. Oh yeah, you'll fly about 500 hrs a year in the Gulf compared to about 150 hrs in EMS. Since I really don't care about building time anymore, flight time isn't high on my list these days. Quality over quantity. Plus I fly fixedwing on my days off to quench any yearning to be airborne.

 

Where do attack guys typically fall into? Our airframes and engines are roughly equivalent to a 60. We just don't have as much adverse landing experience. Although does that matter much?

[SBuzzkill]

That's a good question. I was in an attack battalion for a while and can't think of any guys that got out and went into civilian flying. I'm sure it has happened, but that didn't seem to be the priority for most of them. I imagine the lack of instrument time limits them just like it does us...

[Velocity173]

 

Where do attack guys typically fall into? Our airframes and engines are roughly equivalent to a 60. We just don't have as much adverse landing experience. Although does that matter much?

An AH or OH could still go straight into an IFR twin engine platform. I'm just saying someone with IFR, twin, transport time is going to be preferred over single engine VFR time. I have a friend in management at PHI and he says they'll transition their VFR 407 guys into a left seat twin engine IFR spot but those slots are rare. I would imagine they have plenty of people internally that want to move up to the next level that would be competing with military guys getting out.

 

The difference in pay between SE 407 and ME S76 is significant. I know a guy who left EMS (prior 60 guy) recently to fly the S76. Once he transitions to Capt in a couple of years he'll be making 110 grand. That's about twice as much as EMS. I just wouldn't be able to deal with the drive. I currently work with a former Marine who said the cummute to the Gulf did him in as well. I suppose if one likes the southern LA / TX area then it would work out great to just move down.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Velocity173

[ftxag76]

Any of y'all think the USAR units might be getting more flight time? Hate to say this but engineers in the Oil&Gas are making 90-100k right outta college.

[Velocity173]

Too late now. Already got accepted. Have to be honest with you guys the current facts that you're presenting to us is very depressing.

Well it's important that you all know Army life isn't a rosé garden. If it was then everyone who signed up would all stay until retirement. That just simply ain't the case. While life looks cool in the flying videos we make, that's only a small part of your daily life. Just understand they'll be a lot of nonsense you'll be tasked with outside the cockpit and you'll do fine. Me personally, I could deal with it, others can't.

 

I'll tell ya a quick story about a friend of mine who got out a few years ago. He was a street to seater and did his initial 6 yr obligation in Hawks. He had an excellent record and had one combat deployment. He didn't hate Army life but he was tired of the red tape of Army policies and he was tired of moving around so he got out. Well, we all get a retirement / ETS award and his was an ARCOM. You're suppose to get this award before you get out but as usual, Army S1 was late. His award shows up in the mail one day after he was already out. He opens it up and he's reading the citation. It was a good write up describing his meritorious service as a CW2 FOOD SERVICE TECH. Hilarious! That award basically summed up how he felt about his experience in the Army. Now he flys CBP, has a stable, well paying job and is happy.

 

I can tell you that in aviation you're generally surrounded by those who have attention for detail and strive for perfection. Now, those in other MOSs or those that support you, not so much.

[ftxag76]

 

I can tell you that in aviation you're generally surrounded by those who have attention for detail and strive for perfection. Now, those in other MOSs or those that support you, not so much.

That I am aware of. Just look at the applicants who apply for WOFT. I mean it's night and day compared to other MOS applicants.

[SBuzzkill]

Any of y'all think the USAR units might be getting more flight time? Hate to say this but engineers in the Oil&Gas are making 90-100k right outta college.

 

Boooooorrrriiinnngggg.

[Lindsey]

Money is overrated.

[Velocity173]

Any of y'all think the USAR units might be getting more flight time? Hate to say this but engineers in the Oil&Gas are making 90-100k right outta college.

While that engineer pay sounds good, are they only working 6 mths our of the year like pilots? There are other jobs that make far more pay than Oil & Gas pilots as well. I know people in contract jobs making close to 200 grand a year for only 6 months work. The combat ones are going to start drying up but plenty of Saudi and UAE stuff to go around . You can make a good living as a helo pilot if you don't mind the travel.

[Velocity173]

Money is overrated.

Exacery. I'd take a job as a CFI flying an R22 in the beautiful Northwest any day.

[Lindsey]

Exacery. I'd take a job as a CFI flying an R22 in the beautiful Northwest any day.

Bonus points for Engrish to you, good sir. My nickname going through flightschool was Rindsey because our "rival" flight school was mostly Japanese CFIs/students and that's what they would call me.

[stearmann4]

Godzirrraaah! We just got a brief yesterday that while BCTs and the associated 80,000 Soldiers will be cut within the next 5 fiscal years, Army aviation has not been specifically mentioned as a major contributor of attritees.

 

Rindsey...really?

 

Mike-

[Lindsey]

Godzirrraaah! We just got a brief yesterday that while BCTs and the associated 80,000 Soldiers will be cut within the next 5 fiscal years, Army aviation has not been specifically mentioned as a major contributor of attritees.

 

Rindsey...really?

 

Mike-

Rearry.

[av8rnik]

During our in brief to BCo CW5 Reese made mention of another CAB being stood up now and -64 reserve units getting closed down sometime in the near future.

 

And if you think the stats are depressing...well, I personally can't think of any other place I would rather be than right where I am doing this, and I am only at BCo doing honors detail waiting to class up fOR WOBC. Chasing hours or worrying about what kind of civilian job you are going to get when you are done (in my opinion) is the wrong place to have your head. There is going to be plenty of other stuff to worry about before you need to think about that stuff. Worry about being the best Warrant and pilot you can, the rest will fall into place, at least that is what I keep being told.

[ftxag76]

And if you think the stats are depressing...well, I personally can't think of any other place I would rather be than right where I am doing this, and I am only at BCo doing honors detail waiting to class up fOR WOBC. Chasing hours or worrying about what kind of civilian job you are going to get when you are done (in my opinion) is the wrong place to have your head. There is going to be plenty of other stuff to worry about before you need to think about that stuff. Worry about being the best Warrant and pilot you can, the rest will fall into place, at least that is what I keep being told.

You have a good point. However, some of us think more strategically. Good or bad, that's debatable. I'd rather look at all the options and have a rough view of what's ahead then dive head first. Some of us have have other priorities that we have to balance and I personally think this is a good place to address and ask these questions, before the fact.

[SBuzzkill]

What are your priorities?