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13 members have voted

  1. 1. Flying an R22 at night, the light for one of the gages I'm not required to have (i.e. VSI, VOR, TC, AI, HI, HSI, etc.) is out. Can I legally fly that night?

    • yes
      7
    • no
      6


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This would probably make a good checkride question.

 

The POH says that the instrument lights must be working, but the regs don't require this gage, so do I really need to see it?

 

I'll admit, I don't know the answer to this one,...do you?

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This would probably make a good checkride question.

 

The POH says that the instrument lights must be working, but the regs don't require this gage, so do I really need to see it?

 

I'll admit, I don't know the answer to this one,...do you?

 

No, it's not legal.

 

FAR 91.9 (a) specifically states you must comply with the limitations section of your flight manual:

§ 91.9 Civil aircraft flight manual, marking, and placard requirements.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, no person may operate a civil aircraft without complying with the operating limitations specified in the approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, markings, and placards, or as otherwise prescribed by the certificating authority of the country of registry.

The R-22 Flight Manual, in the Limitations section specifically states:

http://www.robinsonheli.com/manuals/r22_poh/r22_poh_full_book.pdf

 

VFR operation at night is permitted only when landing, navigation, instrument, and anti-collision lights are operational. Orientation during night flight must be maintained by visual reference to ground objects illuminated solely by lights on the ground or adequate celestial illumination.
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I went with "yes", even though I'm not positive that's the correct answer? Thing is, if you're about to take some people up on a 10 minute tour to see the lights of the city, in say an R44, do you really need to cancel that flight just because the light for the VOR is out?

Is there a possibility that one of the people is an FAA rep ? One of my previous instructors used to ask, what would the accident investigation board say ?

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This would probably make a good checkride question.

 

The POH says that the instrument lights must be working, but the regs don't require this gage, so do I really need to see it?

 

I'll admit, I don't know the answer to this one,...do you?

 

The pilot in command of a civil aircraft is responsible for determining whether that aircraft is in condition for safe flight (airworthy condition). The held opinion is you would be safe to fly. Only one burned-out light over the VSI with all the rest operative, the level of safety is not adversely affected. However, if pilots are really concerned over the legality of these minor issues, they should submit a MEL to their local FSDO for approval, to ease their mind.

 

“While the statute sets forth the requirements for the issuance of an airworthiness certificate, NTSB case law has recognized the difference between a new aircraft and one that has been in service, i.e., an aircraft may have accumulated a certain amount of wear and minor defects and still be considered to substantially conform to its type certificate and therefore be airworthy, if it still is in condition for safe operation. Administrator v. Calavaero, 5 NTSB 1099, 1101 (1986) ("However, we do not agree that every scratch, dent, 'pinhole' of corrosion, missing screw, or other defect, no matter how minor or where located on the aircraft, dictates the conclusion that the aircraft's design, construction, or performance has been impaired by the defect to a degree that the aircraft no longer conforms to its type certificate.").

 

"Important in the NTSB's reasoning was that the FAA had not shown that "the alleged defects or discrepancies had had an adverse impact on the level of safety that an aircraft's conformity with its type certificate is intended to insure, or to counter the substantial evidence adduced by respondent that they had not had such an impact." Id at 1101; Administrator v. Calavaero, 5 NTSB 1105 (1986) (quoting in part Id. at 1101). See also Administrator v. Frost, NTSB Order No. EA-4680 (1998).”

 

“The determination of when a mechanical, electrical, or structural discrepancy is sufficiently serious to render an aircraft unairworthy is, in many cases, a judgment call. If the defect is an obvious safety issue, the air carrier regulations noted above provide procedures that a pilot in command must follow if an unsafe condition develops during a flight.”

 

REF: Interpretation of 14 C.F.R. §§ 91.7 and 3.5[a], Witkowski, Mar 26, 2008

 

 

 

 

R22/R44 PART 91 MMEL

 

Pagesfromr-44r-22r0pt91_zps95a155dd.jpg

Edited by iChris
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The pilot in command of a civil aircraft is responsible for determining whether that aircraft is in condition for safe flight (airworthy condition). The held opinion is you would be safe to fly. Only one burned-out light over the VSI with all the rest operative, the level of safety is not adversely affected. However, if pilots are really concerned over the legality of these minor issues, they should submit a MEL to their local FSDO for approval, to ease their mind.

 

 

 

 

R22/R44 PART 91 MMEL

 

Pagesfromr-44r-22r0pt91_zps95a155dd.jpg

 

Cool thanks!

 

I guess all I'll need to do is put a little "inop" sticker next to it and shine the map light on it, if it happens again (to be legal). If I read that MMEL correctly I can do that with a "required instrument" like the manifold pressure gage, as well?

 

Where did you get that R22/R44 MMEL, I didn't think one existed?

Edited by eagle5
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Cool thanks! I guess all I'll need to do is put a little "inop" sticker next to the light, if it happens again.

 

Where did you get that R22/R44 MMEL, I didn't think one existed?

 

Flight Standards Information Management System (FSIMS)

 

Maybe less effort, just replace the bulb. You should always have a few in stock.

 

Another good way to find things, is to go to www.faa.gov and look under the A-Z Index at the top of the page.

Edited by iChris
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Flight Standards Information Management System (FSIMS)

 

 

Maybe less effort, just replace the bulb. The should always have a few in stock.

 

Looks like we were typing at the same time (while I was editing my previous post :lol: ). I'd keep some spare bulbs in my flight bag if they'd let me change it myself,...but they don't.

 

Thanks for the link.

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I'd keep some spare bulbs in my flight bag if they'd let me change it myself,...but they don't.

 

 

 

It’s R22 Pilot preventive maintenance under Part 43/Part 91. Isn’t that just an old post light, no tools required. Just pull off the cover (top cap) and replace the blub.

 

Aircraft_Instrument_Post_Light_17391_zps

 

100_1842_zpsfe045ab9.jpg

Edited by iChris
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Hmmm, if its that easy, I suppose I could do it without them ever realizing it,...since night flights are so rare? :ph34r: :)

“Integrity is doing the right thing, even when no one is watching.”

C.S. Lewis

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“Integrity is doing the right thing, even when no one is watching.”

C.S. Lewis

 

 

Ok so I checked the flight manual, and although it does say that a pilot can change a bulb, its only position and landing lights. So I can't do it,...or maybe they just don't consider it "preventative maintenance" like adding oil? Oh' damn! What to do? What to do?,...What's the right thing? I don't know what to do! I don......aaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh,....my head, my head,..aaahhh,...BOOM!

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Ok so I checked the flight manual, and although it does say that a pilot can change a bulb, its only position and landing lights. So I can't do it,...or maybe they just don't consider it "preventative maintenance" like adding oil? Oh' damn! What to do? What to do?,...What's the right thing? I don't know what to do! I don......aaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh,....my head, my head,..aaahhh,...BOOM!

 

Perhaps you could be trained for this task? The company puts together a training program, approves an instructor who evaluates proficiency. all documented. Not unusual and not difficult.

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If you really can't figure this stuff out on your own, good luck being a career pilot.

 

 

 

X1000............

 

 

pppffffftttttt......

 

cuz yous guys is so amazing ya'll read FAA-H-8083-21 and taught yourself how to fly and everything else ya'll know :rolleyes:

 

* edited.... not necessary to say.... *

Edited by Rogue
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