Enstrom Partner Peoria Illinois

[lvflyer]

There is the correlator difference though. The operation manual written 30+ years ago doesn't detail things very well. The new guide is a lot better, but the procedures don't quite work the same since the correlator changes the dynamics a little. So is it better to start at the top of the green before raising collective or should some room be left to allow for too much throttle at the wrong time being applied. I found myself chasing the RPMs. So what did lycoming do to the IO-360 for the higher horsepower. My Mooney is 200HP with IO-360. The F model has more horsepower than C model with same base engine.

[apiaguy]

The Enstrom "c's" operate at 2900 rpm redline and are turbo'd to 36.5" map for 205 hp. It has 8:1 compression compared to the 8.7:1 of your mooney at 200 hp

The "f" models have a beefed up crankshaft and main bearings. Spin at 3050 rpm at 39" map for 225 hp

Edited August 31, 2013 by apiaguy

[lvflyer]

I've been watching some of the videos in anticipation of taking delivery and I have become concerned about the shaking that I experienced on my learning flight. The seller said for sure that the shaking was as a result of the lamiflex bearings being at the end of their life and the shaking would clear up once they were replaced. I don't have any reason to not believe him, but I wanted to ask you guys if you have any experience with the symptoms of worn out lamiflex bearings and what your descriptions are. I wanted to take me time getting light on the skids so I raised the collective slowly so I could center the cyclic and pedals. At one point it felt like the ship was going to bounce along the ground and shake itself apart. Once in the air the shake was still there, but a lot less. Is that common for this condition? I am going to get an assurance that the shake is gone before taking final delivery. I'm concerned it could be a lot more wrong. How would you describe a normal Enstrom shake on take off? Could you hold it light on the skids without jumping off the ground?

[aeroscout]

Ground resonance can develop very quickly into destructive vibrations. Have you considered the history of ground resonance in your Enstrom ?

[Mikemv]

Lvflyer,

 

 

Main Rotor System

The main rotor system is a three bladed, high inertia, fully articulated rotor hub

with aluminum blades. The main rotor hub assembly is composed of two

opposing forged aluminum hub plates separated by an aluminum cylindrical

spacer. Through bolts hold these items together along with steel spline adapters.

Three steel universal blocks are mounted on roller bearing units that permit

flapping and lead-lag motions. Laminated phenolic pads are used to limit blade

travel in both the lead-lag and flapping axes. A thrust nut on the bottom of each

universal block transfers vertical blade forces to both hub plates through the

universal block.

The rotor blades are secured to each universal block on the hub through a forged

aluminum grip which is in turn secured to a steel spindle assembly through an

elastomeric feather bearing (Lamiflex Bearing) and a retention nut.

 

Closed circuit hydraulic dampers are incorporated between each flapping pin and

the rotor hub to limit the lead-lag velocity of the blades. Because the hydraulic

dampers have no centering spring, they are quite limber; this, coupled with the

large heavy blades causes the ground rock that is often experienced while the

helicopter rotor system is spooling up or at high blade RPM.

The helicopter should not be shaking after run up and/or light on the skids. It should not be shaking on take off or during flight! I would not fly it in this condition. How long has it been operated in this condition? What has this shaking effected on the airframe and in the rotor system?

Mike

Edited September 2, 2013 by Mikemv

[lvflyer]

In watching in the cockpit videos on youtube of the same or newer model there isn't near as much shake as I experienced. I could hardly see the numbers on the Tach. The mechanic has it now and I doubt, as long as he knows what he is doing and I think he does, that he won't let it go in a condition that isn't normal. The seller did say that he had it looked at before we went flying and the mechanic did tell him the lamiflex bearings were at the end of their life. He has had it more than 5 years so I know that he has experienced it with new bearings. He claims for those 5 years he didn't have the shakes that bad, but that comment is relative to his own experience with Enstrom. I'm trying to get an idea of what is normal. The only incident on FAA record is in 1989 that is described as a rollover or rocking back and to the left causing damage to tail and main rotor, but there is no detail as to replaced parts. Sharkeys owned it after the rollover so I'm sure it was gone through with a fine tooth comb.

[280fxColorado]

"Because the hydraulic dampers have no centering spring, they are quite limber; this, coupled with the large heavy blades causes the ground rock that is often experienced while the helicopter rotor system is spooling up or at high blade RPM."

 

Mikemv, the system descriptions you pasted describes exactly why the Enstrom IS prone to wobble while spooling up RPM and lifting off to a hover. As I understand it, however, there has never been a case of destructive/catastrophic ground resonance in a piston Enstrom. This "Enstrom shuffle" can range from imperceptible to intolerable and is aggravated by other factors in the system:

 

The hydraulic lead-lag dampers are troublesome, I would have those looked at first. Make sure reservoirs are topped off, that's a good place to start. If the a damper is going soft, the seals may be bad and the damper needs to be rebuilt. Grasp the tips of each blade and manually lead/lag the blade to feel for resistance. The pressure should be firm and symmetrical on all blades, not mushy or flat. Another trick is to purge air bubbles from the dampers using veterinary style syringes and screw on needles.

 

Improper oleo pressure/extension could be another issue. I've seen a few that are overinflated to get a higher stance on the gear. Makes for a terrible ground rock!

 

Lamiflex bearings also suspicious, especially if the helo continues to shake while in flight. There are metal covers surrounding the lamiflex bearings. You can pull those back with one phillips screw and inspect the bearing for obvious deterioration. The lamiflex bearing is basically a stack of microthin brass wafers bonded together by rubber. When they are "going bad" you will see little rubber bits squeezing out of the bearing or, worse, brass bits breaking out. Could also be just a godawful track!

 

The "enstrom shuffle" can be fine tuned and minimized but may continue to annoy you at times. The best method I've found is to keep positive torque on the rotor system throughout the pickup. In other words, continue adding throttle and keep the blades accelerating throughout the liftoff to a hover. Do not roll throttle into the green and sit at full RPM, light on the skids, shaking the instrument panel off it's mounts! And DO get an experienced Enstrom mechanic to work through your rotor head. These Enstrom wobbles can be annoying but can be overcome with patience and experience.

Edited September 2, 2013 by 280fxColorado

[lvflyer]

The mechanic working on it now has been servicing this machine for 10 years. I won't be using him, but I and my mechanic will be going to the Enstrom school. I think in the long run I'll be ahead financially with my mechanic. For example Roger Sharkey quoted me around $5200 and 2 hours labor to replace the Laminflex bearings if I could get it to him. He said this mechanic should be able to do it for the same. This mechanic's quote was over $8k. He is the only one around here so he has the monopoly. I believe in fair wages, but I think that is a bit extreme. That is why I told the seller that everything has to be sorted before delivery. I am also have a mechanical apptitude myself. I've got another question for you guys. Have you any experience with the optional secondary muffler on these. Is it available for this vintage and is it worth it to quiet it down?

[aussiecop]

I've never flown one with an optional second muffler, but I didn't find the noise annoying either way. As others have said, the Enstrom shuffle you mention is bad, it should quit as soon as you lift off. I agree with 280fx, it's essential to keep adding throttle to keep the blades accelerating, if there are no other issues present, that should limit your shake. As to what you whould be feeling/seeing, I am a stocky guy (240lbs) and it would shake me well, but not enought that I would have problems reading guages or using the flight controls. If you have it that bad then refer to what 280 said about the lamiflex bearings and check the dampers. Glad you have the delivery contingent on fixes, smart move.

[fleman202]

Just out of curiosity where are you located? I fly an R44 out of Goodfield IL. I am pretty sure I know which helicopter you bought but just wanted to double check, was the seller Brad?

 

Fred

[aussiecop]

Lvflyer,

 

How have things been going since you got the ship? Someone brought this thread back and I had a good time reading back through this. Have you learned to deal with the Enstrom shuffle?

[lvflyer]

Just out of curiosity where are you located? I fly an R44 out of Goodfield IL. I am pretty sure I know which helicopter you bought but just wanted to double check, was the seller Brad?

 

Fred

Peoria Fred and yes Brad was the previous owner. I shared a lot of nightmare here

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/190595-enstrom-corner-new-post.html

if interested. I'm sure you know the A&P who maintained this. I paid a premium becasue of Brad's belief in his reputation. Turns out most of the maintenance or lack thereof was on paper only. I've sorted out most of the critical items that almost killed me. Didn't you own a Piaggio Avanti and a Commander?

[lvflyer]

Lvflyer,

 

How have things been going since you got the ship? Someone brought this thread back and I had a good time reading back through this. Have you learned to deal with the Enstrom shuffle?

 

Aussiecop,

 

Sure is an old thread. Yeah I've been doing a lot to it. I posted a lot of adventures at pprune forum on the Enstrom Corner tp://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/190595-enstrom-corner-new-post.html. I could have been killed on the first flight. Contaminants in tank and wrong retainer pin on the fuel strainer. Plugged up 4 injectors. $$$$. I serviced the oleo struts, which looked like they were never serviced for years, and bled the dampers with the tool from Enstrom and got lots of air. You would think when the laminflex bearings were replaced they would have been properly bled. Little to no dance or shuffle now and everyone is right about once you get use to the throttle it is a no brainer. I also thought having to hold the collective down was normal till I found out from Bayard that it shouldn't come up in the hover or in flight. I almost have that adjusted properly now. Now I can release the friction without having to hold extreme pressure down. I have to get use to pulling it off the ground now instead of letting it come off the ground. It got quite tiring holding it down on approach at slower speeds. Also had the wrong spark plugs in it. I installed some fine wire tempests and stopped the major backfiring. The massive electrode champions had sand blasting sand in them. By switching those and leaning like you are suppose to plenty of performance so far. Hasn't been too hot yet so will have to see in the summer. Had to sand the leaidng outboard of main rotors to get rid of exfoliation. I was told by seller that was normal, but found out it was actually corrosion because they weren't maintained. So you see I've been quite busy working out the kinks, but she flies almost hands off for a bit of time now. Did my first community service a couple weekends ago. Served as a platform for aerial photography during a mass casualty exercise. OSF wants to use me again in the future. I do have to polish my door glass and get the scratches out for a better view for the camera though. I posted lots of pictures and video on my facebook https://www.facebook.com/dirk.homan.1?ref=tn_tnmn if interested. So I'm looking forward to more flights, just wish I could get them paid for.

[aussiecop]

LV,

 

Great to hear mate. I sometimes pop mu head into the Enstrom thread at PPRune, but you may have seen that I just recently posted there after not being on it for a while. That forum gets very european quickly so there are a lot of posts I'm lost reading.

 

sh*t, it seems like you've had a crapload of problems, I hope the sale price was enough that you haven't had to sink mega dollars into the bird after purchase. I never got a chance to comment about your collective going up, but yeah, that is no bueno at all man, I never had that happen ever, that would have been a big red flag. Glad that Bayard helped you get on track. He's an amazing resource for Enstrom owners, pilots and A&P's. Like I said in the PPRune forum, they are going to be lost when he decides to hang up his cape.

 

Hopefully you've now found an A&P that knows what he is doing. It's all a learning curve right, at least it didn't kill you in the process and we had to read about it in the FAA accident debrief in RCP.

 

Keep working at the paying stuff mate, insurance is a killer for sure. I know how much it cost to insure the one I flew and it wasn't cheap. Just remember, if you are looking for commercial work, try for long term stuff with a good return, hence when you quote, you can add in that insurance cost so you are good to go. Anyone who is used to paying for regular aviation services knows the prices and wont blink if they are legit. Stay the course my friend! Good luck. I added you on FB so I can check out your pics and keep in touch.

[fleman202]

Peoria Fred and yes Brad was the previous owner. I shared a lot of nightmare here

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/190595-enstrom-corner-new-post.html

if interested. I'm sure you know the A&P who maintained this. I paid a premium becasue of Brad's belief in his reputation. Turns out most of the maintenance or lack thereof was on paper only. I've sorted out most of the critical items that almost killed me. Didn't you own a Piaggio Avanti and a Commander?

I have not owned either of those, sorry. I am operating an R44 out of Goodfield IL. Where are you keeping your ship?

 

I actually use the same A&P Brad did for our R44. Are you sure the helicopter didnt get serviced somewhere else before you bought it? All those things you mentioned that were wrong with your ship dont sound like JL at all. I have been really impressed with everything he has done. He reputation was one of the things that drew me to him. Did you get a pre-buy inspection done before you bought the ship?

 

If you ever are east of peoria and need fuel we have a big tank at our plant!

 

It's nice to know of another helicopter operating in the area!

 

Fred

[lvflyer]

I have not owned either of those, sorry. I am operating an R44 out of Goodfield IL. Where are you keeping your ship?

 

I actually use the same A&P Brad did for our R44. Are you sure the helicopter didnt get serviced somewhere else before you bought it? All those things you mentioned that were wrong with your ship dont sound like JL at all. I have been really impressed with everything he has done. He reputation was one of the things that drew me to him. Did you get a pre-buy inspection done before you bought the ship?

 

If you ever are east of peoria and need fuel we have a big tank at our plant!

 

It's nice to know of another helicopter operating in the area!

 

Fred

Fred, I'm sorry for taking so long to reply to this. First I am up to my elbows in alligators forgetting my main objective was to drain the swamp and second I wanted to think about my response before going on a rant. I will detail this later, but TK the IA that signed off on JL annuals for last several years said the same thing as you about someone else working on it after JL. And TK helped me many years ago on my Mooney. It's not possible any one touched this since he completed the annual one month before I took delivery and one week before delivery he replaced the lamiflex bearings. No, believe me, according to the logs and to Brad's conversations before sealing the deal JL is the only one who has touched this for several years. Because of Brad's trust for the workmanship I paid a premium for this. I am really surprised since he works on his own warbird that he would have not seen these basic issues. I was surprised to find out that he didn't even have a maintenance manual for it. I am going to upload some photos of what the conditions were at the time of delivery and let you draw your own conclusions. I'm only posting this because others deserve to know facts so judgements of their own can be made or at least to be cautious.

[fleman202]

Interesting. I would be interested in the pictures.

 

What kind of work are you doing with the helicopter?

[lvflyer]

Some can be found at www.dahome.net/enstrom.htm. Also just discovered the collective was way out of adjustment and was that way just after the annual so JL didn't even check it. It use to real tiring to hold the collective down and didn't even have to lift it to come into hover. Also when the friction was released you had to hold the collective down which was a pretzel feat since the friction release is a turn knob under the collective. Can't very well hold it down and release the knob without some contortions. Now it stays down like it is supposed to and the forces are equal up and down. Much easier to fly now. I'm learning all I can on this because at this point there isn't a mechanic around here that I trust. The closest is Schaumburg and he use to own this one years ago. Oliver's Helicopters. I'm thinking I might take it to Enstrom and have them go through this completely or at the very least take it to Oliver's this summer. I'd be happy to down to your place and show you the logs and the ship. Take you for a ride. I have to find some way to justify the expense so I planned on doing some rides this summer, but looks like someone beat me to Lacon and Pekin. Had no idea someone else was around doing that and thought Brad had Lacon sewn up since he did it last year. Also thinking about using it for police, city managers, photographers, and maybe even sky diving. Anything to fly.

[Mikemv]

lvflyer,

 

You made this comment in post #9,

 

"This particular ship has been maintained well beyond average."

 

I suggest you do some research on what is required to provide helicopter service to the entities that you mention. "Also thinking about using it for police, city managers, photographers, and maybe even sky diving."

 

Insurance, SMS, regulations?

 

Best wishes,

 

Mike

[lvflyer]

Yes I believed previous owner about it being maintained and I assumed at $5000 per annual it was until I almost crashed. Good thing I was only hovering. All I want to do is part 91, although I am a commercially rated pilot, and insurance is a catch 22. Can't get insurance without 25 hours dual from instructor who has 25 hours dual so that means renting another Enstrom for 25 hours and travelling a distance, which is not in the cards any time soon. The previous owner gave rides at fly ins by having a waver signed. Can't offer this at $450 per hour if insurance is required.

[Pohi]

What about trying to get a qualified instructor to come to you, or you take yours to where the instructor is? That could save you a ton of money.

[lvflyer]

Sorry I didn't clearly explain. The certified instructor, at least from Iowa, won't fly in mine if it isn't insured. See catch 22. I would gladly pay an instructor with Enstrom time an hourly rate to fly in mine. It would do me good to learn from experience. I can't see renting a ship that costs as much to fly mine. So far just muddling my way through, but coming naturally to me. Haven't done a real practice auto yet, but hovering autos are a no brainer. Did that for real on my first flight due to fuel contamination. I've done autos at altitude, but not enough courage to go all the way to flare yet. I know I can get it to the ground without a catastrophe and no injuries, but don't know if I can get down with ship unscathed. With no insurance that would be a big bummer. Thottle is becoming second nature to me after less than 10 hours.

[fleman202]

The stuff you found in the fuel, do you know what it was? I cant tell from the pictures how bad the blades are, what was the issue that you found with the blades?

[lvflyer]

I keep this on here and don't go private so others may benefit. The substance is gritty. It cam from the bottom of the sellers portable fuel tank. I'm still getting random bits in the drain checks. It will dissolve if crushed. He lived in afarming community so I assume it is dust and dirt. The problem was the wrong clip being installed on the fuel screen that allowed it all the bypass the screen. There was no accumulation on the screen itself and it went directly to the injectors. The blades had years of corrosion, exfoliation. I was told by seller that it was normal. I asked him as a condition of the sell to replace that lamiflex bearings. I paid for the bearings and he paid JL the labor. I noticed the blades when I originally was considering being a partner in it and was told at that time all they needed was dressing like you would on a prop. So apparently that's what he was told. At the time of the lamiflex bearing change, since the blades were removed, I asked if the rotors could be dressed. He refused that request and now I know why. It was more than just dressing. It was neglect for many years. The appearance was like woodgrain and the aluminum would flake off in your hand if you picked at it. I had to be careful that it didn't flake off more than allowed in the specs. I had to wet sand each rotor with a block to get it cleaned up. I was concerned the balance would be affected, but fortunately it wasn't. Since I'm a perfectionist when it comes to mechanics and aviation I am going to buy a balance and tracking unit claled the PB-3 and see if I can't get it perfect, although it is acceptible. Especially after I bled the dampers correctly, which the seller claimed was done after the lamiflex bearings were replaced. I found the oleos hadn't been serviced for years and one actually frozen. I found the tail rotor had the wrong gear lube in it, not approved by Enstrom and the drain plug loose and not safety wired correctly. I found a control cable in the engine compartment rubbing against a structure and almost worn through the protective sheath. I found gobbs of oil and grease on the cooling fan shroud. The ground handling tires were dry rotted. All these things should have been taken care of with a $5000 annual don't you think. The screws on the lower part of the instrument housing were gone, which allowed the pedals to snag during flight. The door latches were bent allowing doors to pop open in flight with little effort. Just a bunch of little stuff that should have been looked after by "the best helicopter mechanic".

[aussiecop]

Holy cow, that is quite a list. So sorry you had to go through that on your first purchase. That, sadly, is why I was trying to get you to contact Randy Sharkey down in Indiana earlier in this thread prior to purchase. There are few people around the midwest that know Enstrom's better than he does. But, you do live and learn from experiences right? I am just glad none of it cost you your life, which from your descriptions, there were several things that could have done just that.

 

It really sucks that there are shoddy people in this industry willing to sell aircraft knowing that there are big issues, along with mechanics who are self professed experts when they clearly are making decisions that could have fatal consequences like we have seen time and time again over the years.