Can Settling with Power Become Unrecoverable?

[VFlyer]

I know the title of this thread is a little misleading as settling with power is a "close to the ground" type of concern, but I'm curious as if it can become a dangerous situation when practiced at altitude.

 

A friend of mine told me they were practicing settling with power recoveries, and the instructor wanted to show him what "really getting into it is like". This meant that on the onset of the initial altitude drop and shaking, rather than recovering they aggressively pulled collective and really made it fall. He told me it made him pretty uncomfortable afterwords as the helicopter approached (or exceeded) a descent of 2,000 fpm, and was buffeting and yawing somewhat uncontrollably. Apparently this was held for quite some time and was described to me as "falling out of the sky".

 

I can't find any real good examples on youtube or any discussions of aggressive demonstrations, as the procedure is usually always to immediately recover.

 

Is this akin to spin training in fixed wing? Or is this something that was potentially very hazardous, and dare I say unrecoverable at a certain point.

[Joe_P148]

I think this depends on the altitude available for recovery. If you are initiating this manuver with a exit or recovery plan I don't see any issue with it. Other things like power margin, airspeed, winds and DA could determine the required altitude for recovery. Like any manuver in an aircraft yes, a Settling with power condition could become uncontrolable. In flight school, my instructors never showed me how to recover from the condition only explained it. I think ultimatley, Instructors should be teaching and stressing the fundementals of how to avoid settling with power conditions instead of how to recover. Although recovery builds confidence it also builds a false sence of the aircraft's capabilities. IMHO....

[eagle5]

I think this depends on the altitude available for recovery. If you are initiating this manuver with a exit or recovery plan I don't see any issue with it. Other things like power margin, airspeed, winds and DA could determine the required altitude for recovery. Like any manuver in an aircraft yes, a Settling with power condition could become uncontrolable. In flight school, my instructors never showed me how to recover from the condition only explained it. I think ultimatley, Instructors should be teaching and stressing the fundementals of how to avoid settling with power conditions instead of how to recover. Although recovery builds confidence it also builds a false sence of the aircraft's capabilities. IMHO....

 

Your instructors never showed you "settling with power" recovery?! Where did you do your training?

[Gomer Pylot]

It's akin to a fully-developed stall in a fixed-wing. It's always recoverable provided you have enough altitude, and make the proper control movements. If you don't have enough altitude, then it's not recoverable. How much is enough? That is a constantly moving target. Fixed-wing instructors seldom demonstrate fully-developed stalls, only nibble at the beginnings of them. It's not necessary to show students everything, provided they get the ability to recognize the beginning of a condition and make immediate corrections. Helicopter instructors don't demonstrate the consequences of not lowering the collective after an engine failure, they just hammer the necessity for getting the collective down. And for good reason, since that's one of the few unrecoverable conditions a helicopter can be put into. IMO, a few demos of SWP should be enough for a PPL student, since the object is just to make him avoid approaching the condition.

[superstallion6113]

I thought settling with power recovery was part of the private pilot practical test standards.

[sorcer]

It is a part of the Private and Commercial PTS:

 

D. TASK: SETTLING-WITH-POWER

REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-21; POH/RFM.

Objective. To determine that the applicant:

1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to settling-with-power.

2. Selects an altitude that will allow recovery to be completed no

less than 1,000 feet AGL or, if applicable, the manufacturer’s

recommended altitude, whichever is higher.

3. Promptly recognizes and recovers at the onset of settling-withpower.

4. Utilizes the appropriate recovery procedure

[S9coldfire]

I had to demonstrate settling with power and (more importantly) proper recovery in my recent PPL checkride.

 

Both times, with my instructor and on the exam, we didn't get into it right at the quoted >300 fpm descent, >20% power applied and <ETL. So perhaps we were just nibbling at the edge as Gomer said and certainly nowhere near a 2,000 fpm descent!

[apiaguy]

I think if you crash and claim SWP you will also say that it was "unrecoverable"

 

Deep thought for the day...

[eagle5]

I think if you crash and claim SWP you will also say that it was "unrecoverable"

 

Deep thought for the day...

 

That's like a tailgater claiming to the cops that the guy in front, who just hit, "stopped short"!

[Joe_P148]

 

Your instructors never showed you "settling with power" recovery?! Where did you do your training?

 

I did my training at Rucker and putting a UH60 into settling with power takes some serious skills. I have recovered from settling but the first time I did I was a pilot in command with about 1,000 hrs and my co pilot was just hanging on for the ride. Settling isn't a maneuver like an auto that is a required task, it's more of a topic that is covered at the table. We try to generally avoid condition that are gonna put us into that situation.

[sorcer]

Very few people do their private check-ride in UH60 :/

[eagle5]

 

I did my training at Rucker and putting a UH60 into settling with power takes some serious skills. I have recovered from settling but the first time I did I was a pilot in command with about 1,000 hrs and my co pilot was just hanging on for the ride. Settling isn't a maneuver like an auto that is a required task, it's more of a topic that is covered at the table. We try to generally avoid condition that are gonna put us into that situation.

 

I thought maybe you did your training in another country, but I guess the military does things differently too. Not sure what a UH60 is, but I'm guessing its much bigger than a robbie!

[Goldy]

 

I thought maybe you did your training in another country, but I guess the military does things differently too. Not sure what a UH60 is, but I'm guessing its much bigger than a robbie!

You might recognize the term "Blackhawk".....that's a UH 60.

 

When I took my PPL, I happened to have the Chief test pilot for Robinson as my DPE. So when I demonstrated a little SWP and recovered...he kinda looked at me and smiled.......that's not SWP....this is! And off we went....from 2500MSL over Queen Mary and with all the shaking I'm pretty sure we hit close to 2000fpm descent.....then he says " you have the controls"! Holy crap....I had to nose that bird over almost vertical to get out of it. I wouldn't recommend that level of training, unless of course, you happen to be with the pilot that has done it 1000 times before.

 

BTW- has anyone else been trained in the new sideways flight out of SWP? Personally, it scares the crap out of me, but still works...and with less altitude loss.

[eagle5]

You might recognize the term "Blackhawk".....that's a UH 60.

 

When I took my PPL, I happened to have the Chief test pilot for Robinson as my DPE. So when I demonstrated a little SWP and recovered...he kinda looked at me and smiled.......that's not SWP....this is! And off we went....from 2500MSL over Queen Mary and with all the shaking I'm pretty sure we hit close to 2000fpm descent.....then he says " you have the controls"! Holy crap....I had to nose that bird over almost vertical to get out of it. I wouldn't recommend that level of training, unless of course, you happen to be with the pilot that has done it 1000 times before.

 

BTW- has anyone else been trained in the new sideways flight out of SWP? Personally, it scares the crap out of me, but still works...and with less altitude loss.

 

Sounds like recovering from SWP that bad would only be possible if you were high up, like on a photo flight perhaps? Close to the ground on approach having to point the nose almost straight down I'm guessing would end in a very loud crunch! Still to allow SWP to develope that badly I would imagine that I'd either have to be asleep at the wheel, or flying with my girlfriend while she's,...well...!?

 

Anyway, sideways recovery? I thought the AS indicator didn't work going sideways, which beggs the question, how do you know when its ok to pull up on the collective? Also, are they teaching it at the RHC course, since I may be there in a few months?

Edited July 25, 2013 by eagle5

[Gomer Pylot]

 

Promptly recognizes and recovers at the onset of settling with power

 

That's far from getting into full SWP. It's the same for a FW check, you just nibble at the edge of a stall, then immediately get the nose down and power in. You only demonstrate that you can recognize the onset and recover from that. I suspect that it's rare that a student ever sees full SWP, just what might be the start of it, or might not be. In truth, it's difficult to really get into SWP in normal operations. But if you do, you had better have plenty of altitude.

[500F]

I my trining we did fully developed SWP as some have described. I had to demo it on each of my checkrides and had to coach a "Student" (DPE) through it during my CFI.Each time it took considerable effort to get into. We would go up to about 2500AGL and get a sink rate going. I remember seeing about 1400fpm then we would pull pitch. The the sink rate deminished, were were not in SWP. If it got worse, say 16-1800 we were in SWP and we could initiate recovery. Not really scary once you ahve done it a couple of times. I thnk it really gave me a false sense of security if anything. I know they say 300fpm its possible, but of all of the times I tried it we never got into it at less than 700-800 and usually we had to nose into the wind and tilt it backwards slightly. Of course at 2500AGL you almost always have at least 15 knots of wind.....

[adam32]

 

Anyway, sideways recovery? I thought the AS indicator didn't work going sideways, which beggs the question, how do you know when its ok to pull up on the collective? Also, are they teaching it at the RHC course, since I may be there in a few months?

 

You can even go backwards to get out of it if you have to...

 

There's nothing "new" about going sideways to get out of SWP, you can go ANY direction.

[SBuzzkill]

That's far from getting into full SWP. It's the same for a FW check, you just nibble at the edge of a stall, then immediately get the nose down and power in. You only demonstrate that you can recognize the onset and recover from that. I suspect that it's rare that a student ever sees full SWP, just what might be the start of it, or might not be. In truth, it's difficult to really get into SWP in normal operations. But if you do, you had better have plenty of altitude.

 

Yep, the eval for fixed wing just wants you to recognize a developing stall and drop the nose slightly.

 

Now in training we did quite a few falling leaf stalls which were pretty fun.

Edited July 25, 2013 by SBuzzkill

[Eric Hunt]

Interesting that nobody is calling it by its real name, Vortex Ring, which is that full-blown 2000fpm exercise described above.

 

SWP is a lot milder, but causes a lot of crashes.

[gary-mike]

Interesting that nobody is calling it by its real name, Vortex Ring, which is that full-blown 2000fpm exercise described above.

 

SWP is a lot milder, but causes a lot of crashes.

 

Oh lord! not this debate again.

[eagle5]

 

Oh lord! not this debate again.

 

"We have a turd in the punchbowl!"

[Velocity173]

 

Oh lord! not this debate again.

Lol! I was thinking the same thing. The old SWS is different than VRS debate.

[Goldy]

 

You can even go backwards to get out of it if you have to...

 

There's nothing "new" about going sideways to get out of SWP, you can go ANY direction.

True...the "new" part is that they are teaching it and demonstrating it at the RHC course now...at least they did in the R44 with me a few months ago.

[Hand_Grenade_Pilot]

I know the title of this thread is a little misleading as settling with power is a "close to the ground" type of concern, but I'm curious as if it can become a dangerous situation when practiced at altitude.

 

A friend of mine told me they were practicing settling with power recoveries, and the instructor wanted to show him what "really getting into it is like". This meant that on the onset of the initial altitude drop and shaking, rather than recovering they aggressively pulled collective and really made it fall. He told me it made him pretty uncomfortable afterwords as the helicopter approached (or exceeded) a descent of 2,000 fpm, and was buffeting and yawing somewhat uncontrollably. Apparently this was held for quite some time and was described to me as "falling out of the sky".

 

I can't find any real good examples on youtube or any discussions of aggressive demonstrations, as the procedure is usually always to immediately recover.

 

Is this akin to spin training in fixed wing? Or is this something that was potentially very hazardous, and dare I say unrecoverable at a certain point.

 

 

As others have said, it is always recoverable permitting that you have enough altitude. Vortex Ring State creates instability and reduced cyclic authority, but should not put the aircraft into an unusual attitude or a condition in which recovery is impossible (such as low rotor rpm stall).

 

Fully developed Vortex Ring State (substantial recirculation around the rotor tips and reverse flow recirculation near the rotor hub) results in a massive ROD. Due to the reduction in cyclic authority, it can be difficult to transition into forward of lateral flight, and will require more time to recover than a recovery from the initial stages.

 

The direction of movement during recovery is dependent on relative wind. If you have a tailwind, moving laterally would allow you to accelerate through ETL faster than moving forward. I don't reccomend hovering backwards, as you should always have a clear view of the direction you are moving in.

 

When training my students to recover from VRS, we bring the helicopter to an OGE hover at or above 1,500'AGL w/ a tailwind. The DA that we operate at allows us to hover OGE, so a slight reduction in power is necessary to begin settling. I expect the student to recover once the initial warning signs are present (sudden increase in ROD, instability and a 'mushy' cyclic). The recovery is initiated forward or laterally; once above ETL collective may be raised as necessary.

 

If the student fails to recognize the onset of VRS, applies collective before accelerating through ETL, or puts the helicopter into an excessive nose-low attitude during recovery then their performance is unsatisfactory.

 

Finally, I see no real benefit to allowing the aircraft to enter fully developed VRS. The important part is that the student recognizes the initial symptoms, applies the correct recovery and is aware of classic pitfalls that lead to VRS (such as executing a steep approach with a tailwind)

[pilot#476398]

So, who wants to go up to 10,000 feet in their little R22, initiate settling with power, then just sit there and see if a descent rate developes that's high enough that they cannot recover?