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Need New Heli Business Advice from the Pros


ratat98

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Since you are neither, that sounds like a fine idea!

 

Sure, you feel the need to recognize I shouldn’t contribute but yet are comfortable with the majority of the other replies…… Typical……

 

Furthermore, you don't know me from Adam so what makes you think I’ve been neither?

 

Edited by Spike
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Guys lets keep this civil!

IF, and that's a big IF I decide to nix the business ideas, what route do you guys suggest I take to further my helicopter career?

Let me give you some background about me. Im married with kiddos, in my late 20's, I live in a small town in the middle of nowhere, and if I even get my CFI, I don't see that going very far. I can move, but right now I really don't want to move the boys from their school. Are there any good options for a small town boy like myself? I really don't want to give up on this.

Thanks again

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Guys lets keep this civil!

IF, and that's a big IF I decide to nix the business ideas, what route do you guys suggest I take to further my helicopter career?

Let me give you some background about me. Im married with kiddos, in my late 20's, I live in a small town in the middle of nowhere, and if I even get my CFI, I don't see that going very far. I can move, but right now I really don't want to move the boys from their school. Are there any good options for a small town boy like myself? I really don't want to give up on this.

Thanks again

ratat98,

 

I can’t be more honest with this. The internet IS NOT the place where you should seek advice for a helicopter aerial applicator start-up operation. Especially not at VR!!!

 

Truly, when you stated in your original post “I'm new at this. I don't have a clue what I'm doing”, for me, established the first links of the accident chain and, if not for you, surly for some other poor sucker. Furthermore, IN MY EXPERIENCE, this not only had business failure written all over it, but possibly death as well. Considering the replies you received, I felt the need to state the obvious without engaging in the conversation (even though my pal up north felt the need to focus on, well, -me). ..

 

This is not to say what you are proposing is not a bad idea or impossible. However, IN MY OPINION, you’re looking for answers in the wrong place… With that, find a live, human (in person, face-to-face with accompanying handshakes and man-hugs) helicopter aerial applicator operator who you trust (or pay for) to guide you (i.e. not a mentor who is not associated with the Ag sector). Seek information from them and not from a keyboard and you’re your odds of success will increase 2 fold ……..

 

If you want further advice, PM and I’d be glad to offer some ideas….

 

Edited by Spike
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Guys lets keep this civil!

IF, and that's a big IF I decide to nix the business ideas, what route do you guys suggest I take to further my helicopter career?

Let me give you some background about me. Im married with kiddos, in my late 20's, I live in a small town in the middle of nowhere, and if I even get my CFI, I don't see that going very far. I can move, but right now I really don't want to move the boys from their school. Are there any good options for a small town boy like myself? I really don't want to give up on this.

Thanks again

I don't see where anyone is being uncivil.

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my turn,

I started a 137 op over the last couple years... this is what I can tell you about your plan...

 

1) If your planning on purchasing a ship thru finance you prob won't make it... you need financial backing that won't care if you don't make any money for the first year or two... it will take you that long to get all your ducks in a row.

2) I'm not concerned too much about your lack of flying experience... you can learn on the job.

3) Don't forget the $25000 ground rig set up how you need it.

4) also the $20-30K for the spray system and another 10-15K for the GPS guidance system (of course you might be able to get used stuff for less)

5) Insurance will only cover you thru a step program most likely (water only for @50 hours, then another 50 of fertilizers and then full chem coverage... that's 50 hours of flying around by yourself paying for everything yourself while you train yourself.... yes, that is probabally how much time you really need to figure things out. Then you can only get jobs that do fertilizer application at first... this is very restricting to your plan and might take the entire first season to get this far.

6) I'd be very supprised if you flew 50 hours all year your first year doing your other than ag planned missions... same goes for your second year. Time flies and like the other poster said... there is probabally a reason there isn't already a helicopter in your area... and like you said... your in the middle of nowhere so noone is going to need you.

 

I'll tryo to think of some more

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I'll chime in ... why not. You are going to need to run some numbers on the astro in terms of how much the spray system weighs, then how much the astro can actually haul. I know that a friend flying tours in an astro had difficulty carrying minimal fuel with 2 passengers in the heat of the summer, so whatever performance numbers you come up with, you will probably need to cut it by 10-20% given that you are picking one up 'cheap'. Once your payload is down so far, there is no way you will actually be able to make a profit. You will also need to check the STC on the spray system to make sure it can be used with the astro.

 

I know people using the raven II for ag successfully, but I wouldn't be willing to hot fuel anything using avgas, especially with the fill cap above the engine (I know a couple of people with debilitating burn injuries from exactly that). You would be surprised at how cheap you can pick up a jetranger or oh-58 ... not as cheap as an astro, but far better crash worthiness, and far better performance.

 

Also, out of the 30 or so ag pilots that I know, there are probably less than 5 who have not had an accident (mostly wire strikes, and most have had multiple wire strikes). I don't recommend ag for anyone under 1500-2000 hours, but I know 10000 hour pilots who hit wires, so I'm not sure it matters.

 

Most of the posts on this thread are telling you not to do this, and I would have to echo that. From your replies, it looks like you will more than likely ignore this advice. Small helicopter operations doing tours, aerial photos, and flight instruction in areas where there is a lot of work barely break even. As apiaguy points out, you will probably lose money the first few years as an aerial applicator. Given your level of experience and without someone to teach you how to fly ag, I would make sure you have a hefty life insurance policy so your family is taken care of. I attend way too many funerals of people with a lot of experience, so I don't have a lot of hope for someone with 250 hours in this business.

 

Sorry to be so blunt ... I just don't like seeing good people ending up in a box before they are 30.

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if you really want to make a go of aerial ap in your area I would suggest this guy:

penn-texhelicopters.com...... he has an apprentiship program that I would consider an absolute must to do your own helicopter ag business... that is pilot/mechanic. I don't know him personally but the idea makes absolute sence in that you really need some help and training in ag helicopter ops and if you really want to win you need to get your a&p.

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One thing you have not addressed here is what type of spraying you will be doing ? Range land, wheat, row crops, timber, orchards ? Insecticides, herbicides, fungicides, fertilizing ,seeding, Rodent control ? also what are the gallon per acre requirements for the products you will be using ?

 

All of this has to be considered before choosing a helicopter. Also the size of the fields you will be working? Are they flat, steep, cut up ? large or small acreage ?

 

I fully understand all the reasons you are leaning towards the R-44, But lets get real here. At your density altitude the Raven II is entry level at best. I 'am not a Robbie hater as they have their place and we use them for cherry drying, pollen work and other light duty jobs. Hard nosed Ag work is not their long suit. They were designed to haul people fast and efficient and they work well at that task. When you install a spray kit the added weight and drag cuts deeply into their performance . Couple that with their lightweight construction and you have just created extra maintenance issues. Also the Lycoming 540 has a habit of sticking valves when subjected to the rigors of every day Ag work. The constant power setting changes is tough on the valve train and you can plan on doing a top overhaul on the engine after about 400 hours if you are working in rough terrain .

 

The Apollo Spray system works but has its limitations. They require you to use flat fan nozzles only and that limits your ability to perform many application tasks. Their system uses a poly tank that is subject to UV Rays and their emergency dump system uses a plastic sewer valve that was built for use on RV's and in my opinion is not up to the task at hand.

 

Bottom line on a start up operation is that your yearly gross has to match the total debt you borrowed in order to service the debt, meet your operating costs, properly maintain your equipment and provide a rice and bean diet for you and your family.

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I'm not ignoring, just trying to stay positive. I really do appreciate all the honest responses and honestly it does have us rethinking our plans.. I really don't know what to do now actually.

 

 

Go back through and re-read some of the suggestions given to you. Namely: get on with an AG company that already has work and find someone to mentor you. Doing so will drastically decrease the hit you take if things don't work out.

 

The pros of this:

1. You have a mentor that knows what he is doing and can guide you through potential pitfalls

2. The overhead you take on is cut down by a huge degree.

3. You don't have to get all the licenses and everything else because you're operating under someone who already has such things

4. Your mentor will ideally already have his hazmat certs from the state, allowing you to operate under his supervision, thus negating the potential restrictions brought on by insurance that apiaguy brought up

5. Operating under someone else's company will also negate the need for you to find your own ground crew and ensure they are trained up, since that should be your "boss' " job. Which is actually one thing I haven't seen brought up yet.

 

There are plenty of other benefits to this, I'm sure. Then again, I'm still a student (by definition) who just started taking CFI courses.

 

Go back through and re-read the thread though, seriously. Write down some of this stuff so it doesn't get pushed to the back of your head. A lot of these guys know what they are talking about.

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I admire your tenacity. I attempted something similar and will give you a word of advice regarding the business side. It's incredibly difficult and expensive to start out in this industry. Connections and mentors are a must for a new guy and the odds are stacked against you.

 

I found my aviation business was like an onion with no end to the layers. I had to be the pilot, operations manager, salesman, accountant, marketing director and lawyer at all times. I thought hard work would persevere, but found there is just not enough time in a day. I was learning much of the business side as I went and it lead to mistakes. I quickly learned that talk is cheap and had many "deals" like yours that fizzled. The business quickly developed into a money suck and there was not enough funds to say afloat to catch that break I needed.

 

I don't want to discourage you because I don't regret what I did. 99% of entrepreneurs fail before becoming successful and I learned a lot from my mistakes.

 

I feel starting a business to create a fly job because you are not yet marketable in the industry is a recipe for failure. I don't know you and I'm not going to assume what skills you have, but its not just about flying (that's the easy part). It is important to honestly inventory your weaknesses and develope those skills or be ready to hire someone to do it for you. It could take you a year or ten years to save the money and build the skills needed to be successful. You will pay in the end if you don't.

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