Hot Fueling - Safety, or Paranoia?

[eagle5]

If you were hot fueling R44s all day, five days a week, would you wear Nomex gloves/face mask and eye protection?

 

...or is that just being ridiculous?

[Goldy]

If you were hot fueling R44s all day, five days a week, would you wear Nomex gloves/face mask and eye protection?

 

...or is that just being ridiculous?

 

I know this is almost as controversial as which helicopter makes a better trainer! I used to think hot load an R44? Why not?. Then I was talking to a VR member one day (at Heli-Success), and everything he said made perfect sense.....after that, I will never hot load any 100LL engine...the risks are just not worth the time saved.

[Eric Hunt]

The avgas tank is directly above a hot engine.

 

One flash, and you're ash.

[will8jake]

I hot fuel a 44 six days a week and have not turned to ash quite yet:/

[Goldy]

The avgas tank is directly above a hot engine.

 

One flash, and you're ash.

exactly! And an R44 runs cylinder temps near 500F........and where do gasoline vapors go? They are heavier than air so they go down...down where 500 degree hot cylinders are at! And what's the auto ignition temperature for gasoline? 536F, couple that with the dangers of working around spinning things, like MRB and TRB's, and I just don't see the value of hot loading 100LL.

[aeroscout]

The avgas tank is directly above a hot engine.

 

One flash, and you're ash.

You set the new standard

It wasn't even pandered

The rest of this thread should have to rhyme

If not, post another time !

[eagle5]

I never liked the idea of hot fueling an R44, and I would have felt pretty stupid wearing a Nomex face mask (especially in shorts and a short-sleeved pilot shirt!), so I guess it was good that I didn't get that job,...and I probably won't apply next year?

 

So lets all prey for those poor, desperate, low time souls who did get the job!

Edited September 3, 2013 by eagle5

[DieselBoy]

The National Fire Protection Agency (NFPA) - doc 407 only allows Rapid Refueling of a turbine helicopter.

[ridethisbike]

What constitutes Rapid Refueling, though?

[lelebebbel]

I have worked for companies that specifically permitted hot refuelling of R44s and other pistons in their ops manuals. Tons of ag operators do it around the world on a daily basis.

 

Not saying it's the smartest or safest thing to do, but it is not that uncommon and I haven't heard about any explosive events, with the exception of fires caused by lack of grounding. I personally never liked the idea, and up here it isn't allowed anyhow.

 

If you really want to get your heart rate up, watch a mustering pilot hop out of his R22 with the engine running and the seatbelt wrapped around the cyclic, and fill the thing up with Avgas out of a manual drum pump. If they need the tanks full they will often pump until it spills - hard to avoid that anyhow since the machine is shaking due to the turning rotors.

[eagle5]

Hmmm, what's that term they use for reckless pilots?,...Oh' yeah,...cowboys! Now I know where that comes from!

[500F]

http://rotor.org/portals/1/safety/HAI_UPAC_Guide.pdf

The HAI's UPAC guide chapter 9 has reccomended safe practices for rapid refueling as well, but it also says it is applicable to jet fuel only.

[adam32]

Does anyone know of an actual incident that was caused by hot fueling?

Edited September 3, 2013 by adam32

[pilot#476398]

What constitutes Rapid Refueling, though?

 

Putting gas in while the engine is still running. Hot fueling is just the slang term.

[eagle5]

Does anyone know of an actual incident that was caused by hot fueling?

 

This is the only one I could find;

 

On May 30, 2009, a Bell 47G-2 helicopter operating under part 137 was being refueled with the engine running (hot fueling) when the ground crew spilled fuel onto the engine while trying to untangle a kink in the hose. The helicopter quickly caught fire and the pilot sustained serious injuries as a result.

[DieselBoy]

Does anyone know of an actual incident that was caused by hot fueling?

 

I know a guy that it happened to twice in a H269. You do what you have to in the Ag world, they're also in a different Category and have their own operations manuals. Majority of the time they only get a certain amount of fuel and don't top off. I've hot fueled 44's thousands of times and luckily never had a problem. I still don't completely agree with the idea but just make certain you take every precaution available.

[Goldy]

I hot fuel a 44 six days a week and have not turned to ash quite yet:/

Yet being the operative word. I've yet to have an in flight engine failure.....doesn't mean it won't happen on my next flight.

[apiaguy]

Lets face it... there are certain operations that REQUIRE you to hot fuel. It would be smart on certain piston aircraft to alter the fuel cap to more of a single point type device.

To suggest you will never hot fuel it to suggest you will never fly that type of operation.

In the event of a fire I doubt the person that is going to get burned the most is going to be the fueler... he is going to step away.. maybe a little flash to his exposed skin... it's going to be the pilot trapped in the aircraft that is going to get burned. The thing doesn't simply explode when ignited.

[eagle5]

Lets face it... there are certain operations that REQUIRE you to hot fuel.

 

 

 

I suppose that could be true? I don't have enough experience to say. However, I'm pretty sure tours in an R44 isn't one of them!

[eagle5]

I hot fuel a 44 six days a week and have not turned to ash quite yet:/

 

Just out of curiosity. When you do it, as the pilot, do you roll the throttle down to idle and turn off the master and alternator?,...or does that even matter?

 

Plus, as the fueler, do you wear any protective gear?

[will8jake]

Yet being the operative word. I've yet to have an in flight engine failure.....doesn't mean it won't happen on my next flight.

quit flying if "yet" scares you

[Goldy]

quit flying if "yet" scares you

yet doesn't frighten me at all....

[will8jake]

Just out of curiosity. When you do it, as the pilot, do you roll the throttle down to idle and turn off the master and alternator?,...or does that even matter?

 

Plus, as the fueler, do you wear any protective gear?

The dangers of hot fueling are fuel above the hot engine so the master and alternator really have nothing to do with it. I would normally roll done to idle and wave the fueler off at the amount of fuel I need to get the job done. Hope that helps!

[Fred0311]

I'm a fueler and we are not allowed to hot fuel. But I still wear gloves, ear and eye protection. In the winter I wear nomex unnder my clothes but in the summer it regularly gets to the 120's on the ramp so I don't then.

[Flying Pig]

The Airborne Law Enforcement Assoc magazine had a story from an AH64 pilot who was burned pretty severe while his helicopter was being hot fueled. He tells the story about seeing a flash, seeing people running. He climed out of the helicopter and talks about pulling his Nomex gloves off, then remembered he wasnt wearing gloves! Ouch.

 

Ive hot fueled a turbine on almost a regular basis out working. Long Lining where you are only putting in 10-12 gallons at a time or on a SAR at high altitude where you dont want to shut down. A couple of times Ive been enroute to a rescue call and had to drop in and hot fuel off of the self serve pump 10-15 gallons. I stay in the seat while my partner fuels. Its a situation where the benefits outweigh the risk in certain scenarios.

Edited September 7, 2013 by Flying Pig