Safe or death wish?

[cryesis]

One of the instructors I know likes to do zero airspeed autos as well as pedal turns in the auto with PPL students. Do you guys think this is fine to do or is it a safety concern? I personally feel that it's an unnessacary risk that puts a lot of undue stress on the aircraft. However I am a low time pilot and it could just be that I am not comfortable doing maneuvers like that in the R-22. What do you guys think about it?

[eagle5]

I wish I had gotten to do that stuff during my PPL (as well as sideways and touchdown autos)! Instead I had to wait until well after my Com when I went to the Robinson course.

[Flying Pig]

It all depends on your instructor. Does your CFI know what they are doing or are they experimenting on your dime with you as the passenger?

[cryesis]

experimenting I would say ~700 hours TT pilot

[500F]

0 airspeed autos form how high? I think is inportant to do a few from 6-800' to teach you how to stabilze rpm, demonstrate how the horizontal will tip the nose on its own, get 60knots then turn it into a regular auto. I might go as low as 450 agl with a proficient student but not much lower.

 

Pedal turns in an auto? 0 airspeed? up high? I've never done it and dont see the need to but given sufficient altitude and RPM control it isnt going to hurt anything. He may just be trying to teach you that you can still fly it like a helicopter during autorotation, which is an inportant concept to get across.

Alot of guys treat the ship like a glider in auto.

[pilot#476398]

What is your school's policy on teaching more advanced auto techniques and/or going beyond the PTS?

 

What does your chief flight instructor think?

[Spike]

One of the instructors I know likes to do zero airspeed autos as well as pedal turns in the auto with PPL students. Do you guys think this is fine to do or is it a safety concern? I personally feel that it's an unnessacary risk that puts a lot of undue stress on the aircraft. However I am a low time pilot and it could just be that I am not comfortable doing maneuvers like that in the R-22. What do you guys think about it?

 

What you describe is completely safe when done with a competent instructor. Then again, any maneuver in a helicopter would be unsafe when done by an incompetent instructor….. Eh?

 

Therefore yes, it’s fine and normally not a safety concern. In fact, IMO, it should be encouraged….

 

Furthermore, no, it does not put any “undue stress” on the machine. In fact, stabilized autorotation produces less stress on the machine……

.

Lastly, if you feel this is an “unnecessary risk”, maybe you should reevaluate your endeavor especially if you want to be a pro someday……..

 

Edited September 10, 2013 by Spike

[adam32]

What do you mean "pedal turns"? Is he just kicking right pedal in to lose altitude quicker to hit your spot?

[Azhigher]

Zero airspeed autos sounds like "Enhanced training in autorotation procedures" to me. Although I'd usually only do that stuff with my com students I can see why an instructor would want to demonstrate that kind of thing with a private student from time to time.

[cryesis]

 

What you describe is completely safe when done with a competent instructor. Then again, any maneuver in a helicopter would be unsafe when done by an incompetent instructor….. Eh?

 

Therefore yes, it’s fine and normally not a safety concern. In fact, IMO, it should be encouraged….

 

Furthermore, no, it does not put any “undue stress” on the machine. In fact, stabilized autorotation produces less stress on the machine……

.

Lastly, if you feel this is an “unnecessary risk”, maybe you should reevaluate your endeavor especially if you want to be a pro someday……..

 

 

Just seems like teaching something outside of the PTS is useless for a private student. I try to taylor my training to what the person is going to be doing in the future, if theyre getting a private and staying private I stick to the PTS and keep safety as a primary concern.

[Flying Pig]

Maybe hes tryin to show you the capabilities of the aircraft beyond trimmed at 60kts.

Ive done plenty of autos from 100kts, flare to zero airspees at 1000' and decend vertically while doing a pedal turn to identify a landing spot, then point the nose towards it, gain airspeed and flare and touch down. Although I havnt done it on an R22, knowing the capabilities of how far you can go is good. Even if its only a demo.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Flying Pig

[cryesis]

I think its misunderstood, he doesn't do them with me, he does them with other students. Me and him are both CFIs at the same school. He does zero speeds with pedal turns, I don't.

[eagle5]

Maybe hes tryin to show you the capabilities of the aircraft beyond trimmed at 60kts.

Ive done plenty of autos from 100kts, flare to zero airspees at 1000' and decend vertically while doing a pedal turn to identify a landing spot, then point the nose towards it, gain airspeed and flare and touch down. Although I havnt done it on an R22, knowing the capabilities of how far you can go is good. Even if its only a demo.

 

Capabilities every pilot should know about, not just CFIs! Perhaps every school should have at least one CFI who is experienced enough to teach these things?,...especially to those not going beyond the PPL!

[Goldy]

Teaching it to PPL students? No.....demonstrating it, I would be fine with, as long as it's done safely as several have mentioned. Somehow the student has to see that not every engine failure will occur at 700 feet, at 65 knots, with an airport runway beneath you. Many students (count me in on this one) were afraid to fly too much "out of the box", or be too aggressive on the controls when in an auto....when in reality, you may have to do a variety of manuevers to perform a safe auto.

 

Personally, I love 0 airspeeds, especially in the R44.

[Spike]

The requirements laid out in the PTS are considered minimums. When teaching, it would be shame for an instructor to not impart as much knowledge as possible and teach beyond the minimums…. Plus, the difference between the commercial PTS and private PTS are simply tighter maneuver tolerances and a few enhanced maneuvers. That said; the private exam IS the most important test just because it’s the first experience(s) the student has in the helicopter, hence the learning law of primacy….

 

In the 90’s, private students were initially exposed to authoritative flight by going to altitude and entering into the auto. Subsequently the student learned how the RPM’s are affected by various attitude changes, control inputs and load factors. However, this initial exposure was not the only time we practice from altitude. Specifically, as the student progressed, additional “altitude autos” were completed to enhance the learning. More often than not, and depending on the student, sometimes we’d have the student zero the airspeed OGE, enter the auto then simply re-accelerate all-the-while controlling the RPM's…..

 

500F said it best; “you can still fly it like a helicopter during autorotation, which is an important concept to get across. A lot of guys treat the ship like a glider in auto.” In my experience, this had been the case and enhanced autos were a method of corrective action…….

Edited September 11, 2013 by Spike

[Hand_Grenade_Pilot]

I don't see anything wrong with teaching 0 speed autos, as long the instructor is competent. When I was instructing, I put a lot of emphasis on the fact that if they encountered an actual engine failure, they would not be lined up with a clear spot at 60kts and 500'agl into wind. IMO, to survive an engine failure, you have to be comfortable 'man-handling' the aircraft.

 

It took me around 900 hours of dual given before I reached the point where I could effectively teach and demonstrate more advanced autorotation techniques. Your colleague could be there at 700. TBH, this is something your Chief Pilot or Chief Instructor should be evaluating, no one on this forum is going to be able to tell you if they're teaching these maneuvers safely. As for the maneuver itself, I think everyone will pretty much agree that it is OK if the instructor is competent.