eagle5 Posted September 10, 2013 Posted September 10, 2013 You're in an R44 transporting a couple of passengers. In about 5 minutes it'll be an hour after sunset, when you realize that although you are night current for passengers in the R22 (and subsiquently just about every other helicopter out there) your night currency in the R44 expired 2 days ago! You spot a small airport off your right. Do you land, kick out your passengers, make three trips around the pattern, let them back in, and continue to your destination, another 20 minutes away? ...or do you just say, "f**k it" and continue on that last 20 minutes to your destination? 1 Quote
adam32 Posted September 10, 2013 Posted September 10, 2013 I didn't know there was a difference for night currency between the 22 and 44... Quote
RagMan Posted September 10, 2013 Posted September 10, 2013 Well since the Fars state nothing about make and model but only category and class, you should be fine so long as within the preceding 90 days you've made 3 takeoffs and 3 landings at night. Correct me if I'm wrong. 1 Quote
eagle5 Posted September 10, 2013 Author Posted September 10, 2013 SFAR 73d - must meet the "recency of flight experience" requirements of 61.57 in an R22 or R44, as appropriate. I've always taken that "as appropriate" to meen that if I want to be current for pax in an R44 I must do my currency in an R44, and like wise for the R22. I suppose I could be interpreting this wrong? Even so, the scenario can still be played out with the pilot not being night current at all! Quote
apiaguy Posted September 10, 2013 Posted September 10, 2013 good question on the merits of SFAR 73d... but in reality if this is a fun flight with passengers I have never met a pilot that would stop...If this was part 135 you'd a been a fool to take off as late as you did. 1 Quote
JCM5 Posted September 11, 2013 Posted September 11, 2013 good question on the merits of SFAR 73d... but in reality if this is a fun flight with passengers I have never met a pilot that would stop...If this was part 135 you'd a been a fool to take off as late as you did. +1 If you're in that situation in the first place, you already made a mistake. Quote
eagle5 Posted September 11, 2013 Author Posted September 11, 2013 good question on the merits of SFAR 73d... but in reality if this is a fun flight with passengers I have never met a pilot that would stop...If this was part 135 you'd a been a fool to take off as late as you did. Hmmm, 135 pilots don't fly at night? +1 If you're in that situation in the first place, you already made a mistake. People do make mistakes! The question is what would you do after realizing you'd made that mistake? Simply saying that you're a fool to have made the mistake in the first place doesn't really help,...unless you're Captain Hignsight! Quote
adam32 Posted September 11, 2013 Posted September 11, 2013 SFAR 73d - must meet the "recency of flight experience" requirements of 61.57 in an R22 or R44, as appropriate. I've always taken that "as appropriate" to meen that if I want to be current for pax in an R44 I must do my currency in an R44, and like wise for the R22. I suppose I could be interpreting this wrong? Even so, the scenario can still be played out with the pilot not being night current at all! Reason #471 why Robbies suck. Quote
helipilotm Posted September 11, 2013 Posted September 11, 2013 If this was part 135 you'd a been a fool to take off as late as you did.Huh?? Explain that please? I am on my 5th company working under 135 and have never seen or heard of a 135 manual that is limited to day vfr only?!? Quote
Fred0311 Posted September 11, 2013 Posted September 11, 2013 I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess he meant a fool to take off as late as you did while not night current... 1 Quote
apiaguy Posted September 11, 2013 Posted September 11, 2013 (edited) Yes. If you fly professionally and are not current in any manner before accepting a flight you are very foolish. To then suppose you flew anyway and now your pushing your currency.... Why the hell not continue on? You already showed your ability to be professionally prepared.Like I said before. Part 91 guys land and write themselves as current. Edited September 11, 2013 by apiaguy Quote
Airhead Posted September 11, 2013 Posted September 11, 2013 ok, different twist, you are a CFI and not current but your student is...still keep flying? Quote
eagle5 Posted September 11, 2013 Author Posted September 11, 2013 ok, different twist, you are a CFI and not current but your student is...still keep flying? I don't think 61.57 applies to non rated pilots?, so he must be at least a com student, so just let him fly! Quote
eagle5 Posted September 11, 2013 Author Posted September 11, 2013 Yes. If you fly professionally and are not current in any manner before accepting a flight you are very foolish.To then suppose you flew anyway and now your pushing your currency.... Why the hell not continue on? You already showed your ability to be professionally prepared.Like I said before. Part 91 guys land and write themselves as current. I happy that you 135 guys would never make such a mistake, but are you saying that a part 91 guy (after realizing his mistake) would rather lie about being current instead of simply making a 10 minute diversion to actually get current?,...or are you just refering to what you would do? Quote
Pohi Posted September 11, 2013 Posted September 11, 2013 There is one more option if you are a 135 pilot... Land, kick your passengers out, pencil whip your logbook as a part 91 pilot, reload passengers and continue on as a now "night current" 135 pilot. Then, at least your part 135 records are pure :-) Quote
rick1128 Posted September 11, 2013 Posted September 11, 2013 good question on the merits of SFAR 73d... but in reality if this is a fun flight with passengers I have never met a pilot that would stop...If this was part 135 you'd a been a fool to take off as late as you did. Under Part 135, the passengers are never on time. So deal with it. Quote
WolftalonID Posted September 12, 2013 Posted September 12, 2013 So is this still an ethics question, or are you looking for an excuse for making bad decisions? Seems every answer given is not quiet what you were looking for. Quote
eagle5 Posted September 12, 2013 Author Posted September 12, 2013 (edited) So is this still an ethics question, or are you looking for an excuse for making bad decisions? Seems every answer given is not quiet what you were looking for. I gave them a simple way out! Five minutes left before the mistake becomes a violation, an airport off their right! All they have to do is land, kick out their passengers, make three quick trips around the pattern, let the pax back on board and continue the flight. So far, no one has taken that option! I have never been in this situation. Its simply an if/then question to generate discussion! Edited September 12, 2013 by eagle5 Quote
apiaguy Posted September 12, 2013 Posted September 12, 2013 Just shows everyone would simply continue on. Quote
eagle5 Posted September 12, 2013 Author Posted September 12, 2013 Just shows everyone would simply continue on. Which shows a lack of ethics! Quote
adam32 Posted September 12, 2013 Posted September 12, 2013 Which shows a lack of ethics! I don't see it being an ethics issue, pencil whipping from 400 hours to 2500 hours for an EMS job is an ethics issue... How would you explain to your pax what you are doing when you kick them out at a random dark airport... 1 Quote
aeroscout Posted September 12, 2013 Posted September 12, 2013 It doesn't seem to me to be a reasonable scenario. How is it you suddenly remembered you were due for currency 5 minutes before you currency or recency would lapse ? I can't answer the question in the way it was framed because it is so unrealistic. Quote
apiaguy Posted September 12, 2013 Posted September 12, 2013 You are correct Eagle5... we violate minor "ethics" all the time... sure we violated more than that... it is a regulation.It is an ethics concern because we "endangered" our passengers by not being legal to the extent possible. Just as you framed it, it is a "minor" issue. We all hope this one won't be the one they bust us on. Quote
Spike Posted September 12, 2013 Posted September 12, 2013 (edited) This is not an ethical question. It’s an example of not understanding the regulations…. He said: “In about 5 minutes it'll be an hour after sunset, when you realize that although you are night current for passengers in the R22 (and subsequently just about every other helicopter out there) your night currency in the R44 expired 2 days ago!” which means he is beyond civil twilight and technically already flying at “night”. Night means: the time between the end of evening civil twilight and the beginning of morning civil twilight, as published in the Air Almanac, converted to local time. Civil Twilight: Civil twilight is defined when the sun is 6 degrees below the horizon. In the morning this is known as dawn, in the evening it is called dusk. The 1 hour "before" and "after" requirement is for currency purposes and not for the logging of “night” time…. 61.57 Recent flight experience: Pilot in command.(Night takeoff and landing experience. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, unless within the preceding 90 days that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise. In the scenario, if the requirement is specific to the R44, he is already in violation…….. Edited September 12, 2013 by Spike 1 Quote
apiaguy Posted September 12, 2013 Posted September 12, 2013 violation or not... there is still an ethical dilema... to continue or not. Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.