Spike Posted September 12, 2013 Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 violation or not... there is still an ethical dilema... to continue or not. That would depend on ones point of view and how the scenario is worded…… If I interpret the scenario to mean passengers as non-rev passengers, the simplest thing to do would be to divert and accomplish the requirement…… If the passengers are revenue, say tours, then I believe you have greater problems then just simply meeting a currency requirement……. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle5 Posted September 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 I don't see it being an ethics issue, pencil whipping from 400 hours to 2500 hours for an EMS job is an ethics issue... How would you explain to your pax what you are doing when you kick them out at a random dark airport... If violating a reg isn't an ethics issue, what is it? Just tell your pax the truth! I have to do three trips around the pattern in order to continue flying you guys around at night,...be back in five minutes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle5 Posted September 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 It doesn't seem to me to be a reasonable scenario. How is it you suddenly remembered you were due for currency 5 minutes before you currency or recency would lapse ? I can't answer the question in the way it was framed because it is so unrealistic. Sometimes sh*t just happens! If you can think of a better scenario feel free... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam32 Posted September 12, 2013 Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 If violating a reg isn't an ethics issue, what is it? Just tell your pax the truth! I have to do three trips around the pattern in order to continue flying you guys around at night,...be back in five minutes! You wouldn't have to do three patterns, it says three take offs and three landings...one foot hover, touch down repeat two more times... Most guys I know don't even like to fly at night, so they aren't going to go out of there way to become current, especially at $500+ an hour just to operate the machine... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle5 Posted September 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 (edited) This is not an ethical question. It’s an example of not understanding the regulations…. He said: “In about 5 minutes it'll be an hour after sunset, when you realize that although you are night current for passengers in the R22 (and subsequently just about every other helicopter out there) your night currency in the R44 expired 2 days ago!” which means he is beyond civil twilight and technically already flying at “night”. Night means: the time between the end of evening civil twilight and the beginning of morning civil twilight, as published in the Air Almanac, converted to local time. Civil Twilight: Civil twilight is defined when the sun is 6 degrees below the horizon. In the morning this is known as dawn, in the evening it is called dusk. The 1 hour "before" and "after" requirement is for currency purposes and not for the logging of “night” time…. 61.57 Recent flight experience: Pilot in command.(Night takeoff and landing experience. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, unless within the preceding 90 days that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise. In the scenario, if the requirement is specific to the R44, he is already in violation…….. He still has 5 minutes before its 1 hour after sunset and thus cannot take pax. Evening civil twilight generally ends around a half hour after sunset, leaving almost a half hour of "logable" night in which you can carry pax while not being current for them! (ex. Tonight in Scottsdale - Sunset is at 6:38, Evening civil twilight ends at 7:03, you cannot take pax starting at 7:38. that's 35min of logable night before you need to kick out your pax) Edited September 12, 2013 by eagle5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle5 Posted September 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 You wouldn't have to do three patterns, it says three take offs and three landings...one foot hover, touch down repeat two more times... Most guys I know don't even like to fly at night, so they aren't going to go out of there way to become current, especially at $500+ an hour just to operate the machine... Pickups and setdowns counting as takeoffs and landings for 61.57 is debatable, and I suppose a good topic on its own? With over 300 hours at night I guess I'm not like the guys you know, since I love flying at night! However, an employed pilot shouldn't have to pay to keep up his pax currency in the machines his company operates! If you do, then it might be time to look for another job? ...and yes my flight school allows their pilots a free flight to maintain pax currency! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
500F Posted September 12, 2013 Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 I once read a interpretation on this. If I remember correctly It said for this purpuse takeoff and landing was transitioning form a hover to forward flight and back to a hover...Using that definition. Pick-ups and setdowns are not takeoffs and landings. But quickstops on the taxiway would be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Posted September 12, 2013 Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 He still has 5 minutes before its 1 hour after sunset and thus cannot take pax. Evening civil twilight generally ends around a half hour after sunset, leaving almost a half hour of "logable" night in which you can carry pax while not being current for them! (ex. Tonight in Scottsdale - Sunset is at 6:38, Evening civil twilight ends at 7:03, you cannot take pax starting at 7:38. that's 35min of logable night before you need to kick out your pax) I disagree…. 55 minutes after civil twilight is “night” –period……. The intent of the 1 hour AFTER is; the feds want it DARK when you accomplish the currency requirement. Simply put, night currency ends on the 90th day at sunrise….. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam32 Posted September 12, 2013 Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 Pickups and setdowns counting as takeoffs and landings for 61.57 is debatable, and I suppose a good topic on its own? With over 300 hours at night I guess I'm not like the guys you know, since I love flying at night! However, an employed pilot shouldn't have to pay to keep up his pax currency in the machines his company operates! If you do, then it might be time to look for another job? ...and yes my flight school allows their pilots a free flight to maintain pax currency! Flying at night in the pattern and flying at night around wires or in the mountains is a wholenother ballgame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle5 Posted September 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 I disagree…. 55 minutes after civil twilight is “night” –period……. The intent of the 1 hour AFTER is; the feds want it DARK when you accomplish the currency requirement. Simply put, night currency ends on the 90th day at sunrise….. You quoted it yourself; 61.57 Recent flight experience: Pilot in command.(Night takeoff and landing experience. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, unless within the preceding 90 days that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise. So night currency actually ends on the 90th day 1hr before sunrise! At 7:38 its an hour after sunset when I need to be night current for pax. Five minutes before that I can still take pax if I'm day current for them! I suppose I should have mentioned in the scenario that day currency wasn't an issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle5 Posted September 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 Flying at night in the pattern and flying at night around wires or in the mountains is a wholenother ballgame. I'm not in the mountains however, I only do three trips around the pattern, the rest of the time I'm flying around a metropolitan area,...i.e. plenty of wires! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle5 Posted September 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 I once read a interpretation on this. If I remember correctly It said for this purpuse takeoff and landing was transitioning form a hover to forward flight and back to a hover...Using that definition. Pick-ups and setdowns are not takeoffs and landings. But quickstops on the taxiway would be. I always figured that the "spirit" of the regs was that they wanted you to be proficient in transitioning from the ground to altitude and back (the more dangerous part of flying), so I always fly around in a traffic pattern, but to each his own? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam32 Posted September 12, 2013 Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 I'm not in the mountains however, I only do three trips around the pattern, the rest of the time I'm flying around a metropolitan area,...i.e. plenty of wires! Well...there are plenty of wires 500+ feet below you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Pig Posted September 12, 2013 Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 I think more of an ethical question would be who gets billed for the Hobbs time as you do your currency laps while your passengers sit on the ramp and try to figure out what you are doing. Hmmmmmm...... When I was doing my FW ratings, I taxi'd out, started my take off roll and aborted because of several back fires. Pulled off and parked. The school billed my block account for the Hobbs time. However it was quickly refunded when I made a stink. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle5 Posted September 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 Well...there are plenty of wires 500+ feet below you... So lets hope my engine never fails me! If you don't like flying at night because you're in the mountains, or in sparsly lit rual areas,...then I'm right there with you! However, flying around a city at night is awesome! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Posted September 12, 2013 Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 (edited) You quoted it yourself; So night currency actually ends on the 90th day 1hr before sunrise! At 7:38 its an hour after sunset when I need to be night current for pax. Five minutes before that I can still take pax if I'm day current for them! I suppose I should have mentioned in the scenario that day currency wasn't an issue? Please stop misinterpreting…. AT SUNRISE…… Edited September 12, 2013 by Spike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle5 Posted September 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 (edited) Please stop misinterpreting…. AT SUNRISE…… I disagree…. 55 minutes after civil twilight is “night” –period……. The intent of the 1 hour AFTER is; the feds want it DARK when you accomplish the currency requirement. Simply put, night currency ends on the 90th day at sunrise….. ( Night takeoff and landingexperience.(1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, noperson may act as pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers during theperiod beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, unlesswithin the preceding 90 days that person has made at least three takeoffs andthree landings to a full stop during the period beginning 1 hour after sunsetand ending 1 hour before sunrise, and— Alright, fine,...I'll keep playing So please enlighten me as to my misinterpretation! Edited September 12, 2013 by eagle5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Posted September 12, 2013 Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 (edited) If you are not NIGHT current per 61.57, you cannot carry passengers past the end of evening civil twilight as this IS the time defined as “NIGHT”….. For the fulfillment of CURRENCY only, “NIGHT” is defined by the 1 hour after sunset to the 1 hour before sunrise prerequisite. -At Sunset: Position lights on, tower beacon on. -End of Evening Civil Twilight: NIGHT -1 hour after Sunset: NIGHT CURRENCY begins -1 hour before Sunrise: NIGHT CUREENCY ends -Beginning of Morning Civil Twilight: DAY -Sunrise: Position lights off, tower beacon off I assumed this was clear as NIGHT and DAY but I guess not..... Edited September 12, 2013 by Spike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolftalonID Posted September 12, 2013 Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 Is there a difference between civil twilight and say... Government/Military twilight? J/k of course just though a laugh could be used here lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgMan Posted September 12, 2013 Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 OK ... I'll jump in here. Spike, you need to provide a reference to the carriage of passengers beyond civil twilight because I can't find it. I kind of thought 61.57 was clear in that it defines the times that you can carry passengers as 1 hour after sunset and 1 hour before sunrise before you need to gain night currency, but I guess it may not be as clear as I thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle5 Posted September 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 OK ... I'll jump in here. Spike, you need to provide a reference to the carriage of passengers beyond civil twilight because I can't find it. I kind of thought 61.57 was clear in that it defines the times that you can carry passengers as 1 hour after sunset and 1 hour before sunrise before you need to gain night currency, but I guess it may not be as clear as I thought. It states perfectly clear in the regs that night for the carriage of passengers is 1 hour after sunset to one hour before sunrise! Any carriage of passengers during what's left is covered under 61.57a! I don't know why Spike cannot see that, since its right there in black and white!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle5 Posted September 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 Is there a difference between civil twilight and say... Government/Military twilight? J/k of course just though a laugh could be used here lol. There is actually a "nautical twilight" and an "astronomical twilight" If you go to the Naval Observatory's website you can get tables for all kinds of cool sh*t like that! ...a laugh and a beer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle5 Posted September 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 I disagree…. 55 minutes after civil twilight is “night” –period……. The intent of the 1 hour AFTER is; the feds want it DARK when you accomplish the currency requirement. Simply put, night currency ends on the 90th day at sunrise….. Please stop misinterpreting…. AT SUNRISE…… If you are not NIGHT current per 61.57, you cannot carry passengers past the end of evening civil twilight as this IS the time defined as “NIGHT”….. For the fulfillment of CURRENCY only, “NIGHT” is defined by the 1 hour after sunset to the 1 hour before sunrise prerequisite. -At Sunset: Position lights on, tower beacon on. -End of Evening Civil Twilight: NIGHT -1 hour after Sunset: NIGHT CURRENCY begins -1 hour before Sunrise: NIGHT CUREENCY ends -Beginning of Morning Civil Twilight: DAY -Sunrise: Position lights off, tower beacon off I assumed this was clear as NIGHT and DAY but I guess not..... Changing our minds are we? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeroscout Posted September 12, 2013 Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 Many if not all FARs were written so as to be interpreted any way the FAA wants to. To us that means there is almost always just enough confusion to keep us guessing. Even counsel's opinion is open to interpretation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle5 Posted September 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 13, 2013 Many if not all FARs were written so as to be interpreted any way the FAA wants to. To us that means there is almost always just enough confusion to keep us guessing. Even counsel's opinion is open to interpretation. Normally I would agree with you! ...but not with this one! Its one of the few that actually is clear! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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