"Eyes outside"

[ridethisbike]

You never know what you'll spot...

 

 

 

[RagMan]

That crew was a CFII and student from our school here in Bend. Pretty cool they caught that in just the right time. Never know what a flight might turn into!

[WolftalonID]

I was on a training flight when we spoted a wild fire. Its always nice to call those in!

[sorcer]

That footage is extremely stable, what mount are you using?

[ridethisbike]

That's a question for RagMan to inquire about. I just stumbled across that video on youtube. Thought it was cool and worth sharing.

[JDHelicopterPilot]

^{I was a CFI in San Diego a long time back. I was returning and spotted a grass fire that had just started. I contacted the tower and advised them as I knew San Diego fire had helicopters there. Sure enough, while on final they were heading ot to the fire.}

[avbug]

"That's a hell of a fire."

 

"We are so cool."

 

Everyone likes to call in the fires, and the truth is that usually we get ridiculous numbers of calls on fires. Everyone thinks they're the one that reported it first.

 

What I really hate to see are a couple of self-perceived heroes that elect to fly over the fire. Chances are good that someone is already responding to the fire. If you see a fire, report it from a distance and stay away. We really don't need people contaminating the airspace, and usually all you do is create a safety hazard and delay airwork over the fire.

 

Most fires aren't managed from the air at night, but recently we've seen the introduction of UAV's over fires, and this summer the USFS introduced NVG work over fires in helicopters.

 

If you see a fire, get an approximate location, note the lat long, and stay clear. Call the nearest ATC, center, etc, and report it, and then stay away.

 

There are very few cases where the fire you see hasn't already been seen and reported. Those of us that work the fires appreciate the report, but whether there's a TFR or not, you need to stay away. I've seen too many cases when we had to pull people back because someone decides to rubber neck the fire from overhead, and that delayed responses from air assets. There is no valid reason to be circling that fire.

[Nearly Retired]

I'm with Avbug on this one. That "We are so cool!" comment really turned me off.

 

Is that what you think, Captain Hero?

 

I can just imagine what he'll be like in the future as an EMS pilot.

 

So cool.

[crashed_05]

The "We are so cool" comment was made by a very young, new student pilot working on his private certificate. I'm sure it was very cool to him.

http://www.ktvz.com/news/bend-student-helicopter-pilot-spots-wildfire-photo-john-michaelson/-/413192/21614362/-/11a1eblz/-/index.html

[eagle5]

"We are so cool"

 

Yeah, I said something like that once,...but we were orbiting a pair of boobs!

[rubidug]

Take note, might be the first time somebody thanked a helicopter for being loud!

[aeroscout]

I agree with avbug as well. Any of the fires I have ever seen and reported, or even overheard being reported to ARTCC, none seemed to phase them one bit. I would conclude that in all those cases the reported fires were no more than confirmation of previous reports.

[C of G]

Eh... I've called 911 more times than I care to admit. What's the harm in it? Better to re-report than let something go unreported.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kitty_Genovese

 

As for a self assessment of "We're so cool..." Who am I to judge? Maybe they are. I do have to admit that I couldn't be bothered to watch the video, and if they were loitering over a fire, maybe a lesson could be learned about a TFR, but again, having not seen the video, I don't know the altitude or if ATC advised them to depart.

 

What I really wanna know is... How do you post a video so it shows up like that? All I've ever been able to do is put a link. How is anyone supposed to know how cool I am if I can't show a video?!?!

[avbug]

They weren't talking to ATC. They were talking to a 911 dispatcher on a cell phone. Whether there was a TFR or not, they had no business being over that fire. None.

 

I work fires for a living. I've worked fires for a living for a long time. I've done most of the functions that are available to be done over fires, including air attack, tanker work (single engine and heavy fixed wing tankers included), etc. I spent six years on the ground working fires. While not an expert, at this point, several decades into the process, I've got a fairly good handle on fighting fire from the air (and on the ground).

 

"We're so cool" was not only inappropriate, but stupid. They weren't cool. They were foolish. They were a hazard, and nothing was gained by their presence. Moreover, they created a hazard for other responders to that location, and given that responses began being conducted at night with rotorcraft this year on wildfires (with NVG's), it's an additional unnecessary hazard.

 

I've seen air assets pulled back time and time again when some brightspark decides to go play hero over a fire. Where possible, that person has been identified and referred to the FAA for prosecution, but in every case, it can cost valuable time and attention to the fire by air assets, and puts everyone at risk. Every year we end up doing a lot of education which either doesn't sink in or apparently doesn't reach the young and inexperienced, and the instructor did no favors to the student with this stunt.

 

Call it in from a distance and move on, away from the fire. Always.

[aeroscout]

Over the years an aviation rule of thumb is that there are no always and nevers in aviation. There seems to be an exception to every rule, and even rules for exceptions. But until now I haven't seen any ironclad always until I read the last sentence of avbug's most recent post (reply #14). The more I look at it and consider it the more I like it.

[Jay Bunning]

My name is Jay, I was the CFI and took that video and so in a good position to respond to some of the comments:

 

@ Sorcer: GoPro suction mount on the left seat 'skylight'

 

@ AvBug: "Everyone likes to call in the fires, and the truth is that usually we get ridiculous numbers of calls on fires. Everyone thinks they're the one that reported it first."

After to speaking to thankful residents who called to find out why a helicopter was waking them up at 1am - they were told we were the first and only call.

"We really don't need people contaminating the airspace, and usually all you do is create a safety hazard and delay airwork over the fire."

I agree. We often spot wildfires during the day and train student to do exactly that - via center or FSS. But this was nearly 1am, below the level of houses and in a built up area with imminent risk to lives (sleeping residents) and property - hence the low buzzing and direct call to 911 - and you will hear one of the very first things I say is "lets see if anyone is there already"

"If you see a fire, get an approximate location, note the lat long, and stay clear. Call the nearest ATC, center, etc, and report it, and then stay away. "

Again I totally agree if it was not for the fact that this was 1am and moving fast direct to houses.

@ Nearly Retired: "That "We are so cool!" comment really turned me off. Is that what you think, Captain Hero?" He is a young kid just starting flying - he did think it was cool to be helping potentially save lives from the helicopter.

@ crashed_05 Thank you I agree.

@ rubidug: Absolutely - I received multiple emails and phone messages from people who lived by the fire. Here is an example:

"Thank you for your email, Jay. I just wanted to let you know of the magnitude of your good deed (and Keaton’s). As I mentioned, we were the house closest to the fire, however I didn’t mention that there were ten of us in the house at the time – myself, my husband, my daughter, my son-in-law, my granddaughter (13), my two grandsons (4 and 2 weeks), my two grand-dogs and my grand-kitty. J I came to Bend from California at the beginning of August to celebrate the birth of my grandson and to spend time with him and my family until heading south at the end of this week.

Looking at the fire from your video and then seeing the charred remains the day after (looking over the hillside) just makes you think about how lucky we all are to still be here….if you and Keaton hadn’t seen the fire, who knows what may have happened. Mire words cannot express our gratitude. We will be forever thankful for your keen eyes and, as you said, for being in the right place at the right time. Please share our gratitude with Keaton.

Thank you again."

@ C of G: I agree.

@ AvBug: I agree with 99% of what you say, including this: "Call it in from a distance and move on, away from the fire. Always." But not the "Always" - there are exceptions and this was one - fast moving fire at 1am with immediate threat to people and property. I live near the fire, I know the terrain and know how it would not be detected until it reached the crest of the river and the house - it was almost there and I needed to wake people as we got the fire trucks enroute. And like I said the residents were extremely thankful - see the email quoted above and listen the resident talking on this news video (2 min 15 seconds in): http://www.ktvz.com/news/bend-student-helicopter-pilot-spots-wildfire-photo-john-michaelson/-/413192/21614362/-/11a1eblz/-/index.html

Also listen to this message left for us at the local airport: http://s3.amazonaws.com/wescomcorp/audio/Helicopter_wakens_residence_to_fire.wav

 

So my takeaway is YES as AvBug says - stay away from wildfires and make the call to center/FSS, but there are always exceptions - use your common sense and judgement.

Edited September 28, 2013 by Jay Bunning

[avbug]

No, this isn't an exception.

 

Call it in and get clear. You did your boy scout good deed for the day. At no time did you need to be over the fire. You indicate that you know the area, and therefore can give a more than adequate description of the target site for ground resources to access the fire. You're not trained to give an adequate size-up, so aerial observation of the fire, knowledge of fire behavior, knowledge of ground resources, lack of radio communication equipment for ground contacts, lack of training in the incident command system, and numerous other factors dictate that you've no business being over that fire.

 

The resource center that you contact (the local law enforcement dispatch center via your 911 call, in this case) is not the only center necessarily involved, especially in a wildfire. Very often this extends to state or federal troops who are dispatched through multiple other centers, and coordinated regionally at a GACC (geographical area coordination center) or NIFC (national interagency fire center). The local 911 operator most likely has no knowledge of other resources which may be dispatched, meaning if that's your point of contract, you won't have knowledge of those resources overhead. If air attack assets, helittack, or even UAV/UAS assets are tasked or assigned, now you've become a hazard.

 

That locals are happy their house didn't burn is not justification for overflying the fire or remaining over the fire, and it's a very poor example to lend the student (who based on example, will be more inclined to do the same thing himself). The home owners are not trained firefighters either. All they know is that their homes didn't burn, and that's something that isn't prevented by you, but by ground troops. What you did is make a phone call, and that doesn't require overflying the fire, nor remaining over the fire.

[Jay Bunning]

@ AvBug:

 

I find it interesting that you can be so sure, despite not knowing all the facts or actually being there at the time:

 

1> This was NOT a wildfire - this was an urban bush fire - in a city.

2> How do you know I do not have wildfire training? I actually do have wildfire firefighting training and experience.

3> The fire was moving towards houses so fast (hard to see the full details in the video) that I chose to stay over and buzz houses as I made the call to wake residents and - it was around 1am and the fire was probably not going to be called in on the ground until it crested the ravine onto the properties with sleeping residents. I also believed that fire units may not get there in time - so I chose to stay in the area and wake the the residents.

4> I had previous taught my student how to deal with WILDFIRE calls and how to stay clear of areas etc. And in the flight (maybe on the video above too), I reminded my student of how this was an exception etc.

 

Like I said I hear you and understand what you are saying and 99% agree, but on this single instance (which you are forming such firm opinions on, without being there or knowing all the facts) I'm confident in myself that I made the right decision that night.

[avbug]

I find it interesting that you can be so sure, despite not knowing all the facts or actually being there at the time:

 

 

I saw the video, and I've been a professional firefighter a lot longer than you. You're not a firefighter, are you?

 

This was NOT a wildfire - this was an urban bush fire - in a city.

 

 

 

That makes it a wildfire.

 

 

How do you know I do not have wildfire training? I actually do have wildfire firefighting training and experience.

 

 

 

 

Then you either didn't take your training seriously, have no experience, or were a piss poor student of your training. If you actually did have any training in wildland fire operations, you'd know better than to play hero lookey-loo over the fire, but even then, having picked up a pulaski doesn't make you an aerial firefighter.

 

We go to a lot of effort every year to educate the flying public about staying far away from wildland fires. You appear to be doing the opposite, and it's not productive.

 

 

 

The fire was moving towards houses so fast (hard to see the full details in the video) that I chose to stay over and buzz houses as I made the call to wake residentsand - it was around 1am and the fire was probably not going to be called in on the ground until it crested the ravine onto the properties with sleeping residents. I also believed that fire units may not get there in time - so I chose to stay in the area and wake the the residents.

 

 

 

 

 

Standard wildland fire practice, right?

 

The statement on the video said it all: "we're so cool."

 

The demeanor (yours) didn't indicate experience with wildland fire, and the statement that "that's one hell of a fire" particularly so. If you thought that was one hell of a fire, you surely can't have seen very many.

 

Stay clear next time. Make your phone call, and stay clear.

[Jay Bunning]

AvBug: you are right, I'm sure you have much more experience and I sincerely respect your opinions/advice. This forum discussion is degrading into personal attacks and so how about message me your number and we can discuss this on the phone- id like to learn more from you and until then, agree to disagree.

[helonorth]

There was a fire. You reported it. avbug went on one of his trademark holier than thou rants. It's pretty apparent his interests do not lie in informing or educating, but rather to incite and insult. Don't be under the illusion that his participation in this forum is anything but that. My advice is just move on and don't feed the troll.

[Spike]

Our local region doesn’t operate any nighttime wildland air assets. Not sure of how many night wildland op’s are occurring in other regions but it’s probably safe to say, it’s not happening in Bend…….. Shoot, around here, once the cutoff time nears, all air assets flee the scene….. And that would be ALL air assets…. Either way, the biggest hazard would be other rubber-neckers doing the same, including any nighttime air-bears since they usually have a tac radio freq to the local fire dispatch along with a mapping system for targeting….

[Flying Pig]

I used to fly over fires and pretend I was dropping water. Can I log that?

[avbug]

Once again helonorth enters a discussion with absolutely zero to contribute to the topic. At least she's consistent. One wonders how much fire experience she has.

 

What region are you in, Spike? Policy is that cutoff time is 1/2 hour prior to sunrise and 1/2 hour after sunset, usually referenced as "pumpkin time."

 

Other air assets can be over the fire well after that time, however, and the USFS began using NVG's this summer for the first time. Other agencies have used it for some time. UAV's were also put to use over fires this year, and other assets are frequently airborne well after dark, as well as law enforcement at the local, county, state, and federal levels. Further, if air assets were airborne and available, but reports showed a helicopter over the fire that nobody could talk to on a known victor frequency or on the FM guard frequencies, air operations would be shut down or prohibited until control was had of the airspace over the fire.

 

Air assets not generally publicized are also used frequently over fires, or multiple fires in the area; aircraft doing infrared and mapping missions, as well as other law enforcement or SAR work are frequently airborne over fires or fire complexes well after dark. Where people such as campers (or illegals in the southwest) may be within or adjacent to a fire perimeter, or suspects for the fire itself may be in the area, often air assets are up at night, and you may never know it. Some of those aircraft include turbojet equipment that flies at lower altitudes taking photographs, or fixed wing turboprop, and sometimes helicopter assets as well. Recently UAV's have also been added to the fray. On the Rim fire, for example, they were airborne all night, each night.

 

There is no value for non-fire personnel to be over a fire. Report it and get clear. Period.

Edited September 29, 2013 by avbug

[Spike]

R5-North….

As far as I know, the SoCal agencies are the pioneers of night wildland op’s and are the ones who’ve been doing it for a while (years). And, just as you said, night op’s for USFS is new, just as UAV’s, ergo, that was kind-of my point…. A half-acre nighttime veg fire in Bend probably isn’t going to scramble NVGed USFS resources with a UAV…….. However, I can attest, the local ghetto-birds are often utilized for the reasons I previously mentioned and a (better) reason for nonparticipants to remain clear….

My beef is the student couldn’t seem to fly a consistent high recon……. Plus, was the student charged for this portion of the flight???? Hope not.....

Edited September 29, 2013 by Spike