Atheist-Pilot: A Dangerous Combination!

[aeroscout]

Why are believers so afraid to address my challenges? Because they are weak which proves religion is simply mythology. Perfect words to describe believers: The pathetic image of the flock.

 

So, churches have hospitals. Really? Wow. Then why have doctors? Why don't church-run hospitals simply use prayer to heal the injured and sick? Put your money where your mouth is. If prayer works, we wouldn't need doctors.

 

The fact is this: Prayer never works because 'god' is imaginary.

Your assertion of a claim as being fact, does not make it so.

There are historical documents describing faith healing such as the dead sea scrolls.

That was before God created modern medicine and enough modern day doctors to perform modern day miracles.

Also, what you describe as "prayer" that never works is another fallacy. There are rare cases reported where healings have occurred to illnesses that were diagnosed as hopeless.

Also there have been many cases reported where the best medical minds have given prognoses that patients will never walk again, and the patients did walk again.

It think you may be referring to faith healings. From what I have seen of them I might agree with you that they are much more theatre than efficacious.

And lastly it is not a fact that God, or "god" as you put it is imaginary. Maybe your imagination can't entertain the thought. But by no means is your imagination the standard.

You cannot disprove a supreme being. Nor can anyone else.

[palmfish]

Mike, I noticed you joined VR yesterday and this is the only thread you have posted in. Are you a helicopter pilot?

 

Do you have any comments that might contribute to the actual topic of this thread?

[aeroscout]

Mike, I noticed you joined VR yesterday and this is the only thread you have posted in. Are you a helicopter pilot?

 

Do you have any comments that might contribute to the actual topic of this thread?

Excellent point. I am kind of ashamed I didn't make it.

[palmfish]

Dont be ashamed of that! You have lots of more important things to be ashamed of...LOL

[Wally]

Why are believers so afraid to address my challenges? Because they are weak which is more proof that religion is simply mythology. Perfect words to describe believers: The pathetic image of the flock.

 

So, churches have hospitals. Really? Wow. Then why do they have doctors? Why don't church-run hospitals simply use prayer to heal the injured and sick? Put your money where your mouth is. If prayer works, we wouldn't need doctors.

 

So faith and science don't mix. If faith/prayer worked, there would be no need for science. The fact is this: Prayer never works because 'god' is imaginary.

 

It's easy to prove that prayer never works and is simply fantasy.

 

Example 1) I prayed for a good grade and I got it. What about people who did not pray for a good grade but got a good grade? How is this explained? That another invisible friend, Satan, helped the non-believer?

 

Example 2) I prayed for a beautiful wife and I got one. What about people who didn't pray for a beautiful wife but got one? How do you explain this?

 

Claiming that prayer works, when it never does, is simply wallowing in wishful thinking and self-delusion. Not good for you or society. Believers need to think about why believing in an invisible friend is harmful to society. However, they won't. Why? Believers are urged to not think.

 

Never question your faith. And never answer any challenges from nonbelievers. Why? Because your invisible sky daddy won't give you any answers to help you. It's one of 'gods' little mysteries why 'god' can't help make Christians make a Bronze Age mythology seem real when believers are challenged.

 

If you are a thinking human being, you need to ask yourself, what is more likely? Did a god make man or did many men make many gods? And then ask yourself why religious and superstitious belief is extremely harmful to society.

 

Prayer is not a command.

Edited October 16, 2013 by Wally

[Mike West]

Their are several problems with this entire posting. First, this is not a religious blog, it's about helicopters. Believers want to take their religious mythology and bash people who don't believe in their invisible sky daddy (Atheist-Pilots. A Dangerous Combination!). So, the believers brought on this topic, not people of reason, rationality and those who base their lives on reality--not fantasy.

 

Now, since believers brought it on, then you must suffer the consequences. Science HAS shown that all religions and all superstitions are man-made. And people of reason won't back down. And we all know that Christians absolutely hate it when someone demands they think about the validity of their religious truth claims. Case in point, everyone who wants me to stop writing.

 

"You must respect my belief. I demand immunity from criticism!!!!!" No, in the Scientific Age, we laugh at those who believe in religious mythology. The only reason why the religious demand respect and immunity from criticism is it's the only way they can get it.

 

The Bible is filled with a plethora of outdated teachings and extremely immoral propositions. The most dangerous combination for a believer helicopter pilot is believing they have an invisible friend helping them fly the helicopter.

 

I would never allow a religious pilot to fly me in a helicopter. What if that believer had a "vision" (the night before) that it was moral to kill everyone that day when flying? Why would killing everyone be moral to the Christian pilot? Because the Christian thinks he is being told that an extremely immoral action is moral based on the blessing of "the creator of the universe"--an invisible friend. Hey, if the "creator" approves the action, how could we argue with that, he knows all, sees all, and is all moral, so the immoral action must be moral!!

[Mike West]

It used to be that people left the religious alone. However, since 911, things have changed. We see that normally moral people, when indoctrinated into a religious cult, can do extremely immoral things. 911 was the world's wake-up call to the danger of religious belief to society. Science is with war with religion, like it or not, science is winning.

 

I will stay and argue this until the day I die. What do Christians want me to do? Shut-up. Stop talking. We demand you respect our belief!!! We demand immunity from criticism. We are adults and we have an invisible friend. Don't make fun of adults who have invisible friend. It's not nice.

 

The cries of the religious are like those of rats jumping off a sinking ship.

[pilot#476398]

Damn, this one's really gone off the deep end!

[aeroscout]

Damn, this one's really gone off the deep end!

 

And into the abyss !

Dont be ashamed of that! You have lots of more important things to be ashamed of...LOL

Well, There is that !

[MLH]

The Bible has so many outdated teachings and immoral instructions. Take doubt. The Bible instructs their followers not doubt their faith. Matthew 14:31, Luke 24:38, John 20:24-29, Romans 14:23, James 1:6.

 

(Side note: Admonishing anyone to not doubt an organization is a red flag that its probably a cult.)

 

The Bible says to never doubt. That faith is a virtue. Sciences says, doubt is everything. Faith is not a virtue, reason is a virtue. It's easy to test the unfounded virtue of the teaching of doubt.

 

1) When you cross the street, do you use religious faith or doubt? Do you say, "I am going to cross this street, and use religious faith, I don't have to look, 'god' will keep me safe."? If you are smart, you don't use religious faith to cross the street, you use doubt and look both ways and the double and triple check as you are crossing. Doubt it everything.

 

2) When you buy a car. Do you say, "I will trust in 'god' that the first dealership I go to will be the right one and I will buy the car the sales person recommends you buy. It's all about faith, my invisible friend will see that all goes well." Or do you say, "I wonder which is the most reliable car. Let me check with Consumer Reports to make sure I am getting a good car. Am I getting the right price? I wonder?" Doubt is everything.

 

3) When you buy clothing, do you use religious faith? "I like this shirt, I don't need to put it on, I will trust 'god', he is going to make sure it fits. I don't need to doubt this." Or do you try on the shirt to make sure it's a good fit? Doubt is everything.

 

Sciences says, doubt is everything. Faith is not a virtue, reason is a virtue.

 

 

Just great, an atheist treating us to a bible study, the equivalent of a BFR from a New York city cabbie!

[Tom22]

Mike, you fabricated a tapestry full of cockamamie pejoratives woven with problematic premises.

[aeroscout]

 

Sciences says, doubt is everything. Faith is not a virtue, reason is a virtue.

 

 

Just great, an atheist treating us to a bible study, the equivalent of a BFR from a New York city cabbie!

 

What's that cabbie's name ? I need a BFR !

[terminal_velo]

Mike, you fabricated a tapestry full of cockamamie pejoratives woven with problematic premises.

 

Sounds like someone else we know.

 

I wonder if Mike and Nearly Retired are the same person, someone with a violent internal conflict and severe mental health issues.

[Wally]

Their are several problems with this entire posting. First, this is not a religious blog, it's about helicopters. Believers want to take their religious mythology and bash people who don't believe in their invisible sky daddy (Atheist-Pilots. A Dangerous Combination!). So, the believers brought on this topic, not people of reason, rationality and those who base their lives on reality--not fantasy.

 

Now, since believers brought it on, then you must suffer the consequences. Science HAS shown that all religions and all superstitions are man-made. And people of reason won't back down. And we all know that Christians absolutely hate it when someone demands they think about the validity of their religious truth claims. Case in point, everyone who wants me to stop writing.

 

"You must respect my belief. I demand immunity from criticism!!!!!" No, in the Scientific Age, we laugh at those who believe in religious mythology. The only reason why the religious demand respect and immunity from criticism is it's the only way they can get it.

 

The Bible is filled with a plethora of outdated teachings and extremely immoral propositions. The most dangerous combination for a believer helicopter pilot is believing they have an invisible friend helping them fly the helicopter.

 

I would never allow a religious pilot to fly me in a helicopter. What if that believer had a "vision" (the night before) that it was moral to kill everyone that day when flying? Why would killing everyone be moral to the Christian pilot? Because the Christian thinks he is being told that an extremely immoral action is moral based on the blessing of "the creator of the universe"--an invisible friend. Hey, if the "creator" approves the action, how could we argue with that, he knows all, sees all, and is all moral, so the immoral action must be moral!!

 

The next time you interact with the TSA, urgently and forcefully inquire after the flight crew's faith. Enjoy the ride.

[Nearly Retired]

Wow. We sure are not in danger of being described as a forum of deep thinkers! From Avbug to this "Mike West"...damn! Some of y'all is really special. Yup, reaaalllly special!

 

Look you pinheads, can't we separate religion and faith? Atheists IMMEDIATELY start defending their position by attacking Christianity or the Bible, as if Christianity is the ONLY alternative to atheism. What dopes! No wonder people have negative opinions about atheists! Damn!

 

This "Mike West" character really takes the cake. Again, and why do I need to keep repeating this, what is so hard to believe of the premise that this universe might have been created? Wally gets it, as do a few others. What's wrong with the rest of yous?

 

And hey, I make no character judgments about atheists one way or the other. I only comment on their limited, childlike thinking and lack of reason and perspective. For that I'm vilified and described as "spewing vitriol." Meh. As if.

 

I do note (with absolutely no pleasure) that with one person ("she who must not be named"), the life of one atheist is particularly horrible. In her own words (in her blog) she describes conflict after conflict. (Have any of you people actually READ her blog? I mean, from the beginning? That is one unhappy woman! I absolutely would not want to be in her shoes. No wonder her husband left her!) And THEN she tells us about her messy, painful divorce in exquisite detail and living color (which she absolutely, positively isn't over-dramatizing and exaggerating, oh no! even though she now has a book deal to write about it - hah!). I've heard other less-than-flattering things about her which I have not written about (hey, it's a tiny industry). I make mention of these things and I'm "attacking" and smearing and blah blah blah. And so I think to myself, "You know what, toots? Maybe if you had a little faith, things in your life wouldn't be so bad and you wouldn't have such a bad attitude!"

 

Faith. People try to parse and dissect it - they try and tell us that there are different kinds of faith! But really folks, it's pretty simple. Either you have faith or you do not. Either you believe in things that cannot be scientifically proven or you don't. If you have faith in "some" things, why can't you have faith in other things? Some of you think *I* am being dishonest. HAH! I think it's dishonest when someone says, "I have no faith! I need absolute scientific proof that God exists!" but at the same time they're willing to accept on faith alone that their spouse loves them, and their mechanic didn't leave a wrench in the turbine. That, my friends, is crazy-stupid.

 

Now, speaking of being dishonest, I said I wasn't going to respond to atheists or argue with them, but I'm going back on my word. God, I feel so dirty sometimes...

 

Terminal Velo writes:

 

Nearly Retired, this diatribe of yours is such a joke. You keep spewing these false assertions and have failed repeatedly to defend any of them. Every time someone challenges one of your idiotic statements, you ignore it and yell louder.

 

Well TV, I have no idea who you are or what you've written to "challenge" me, as you and your views are certainly of no interest to me. I hadn't even realized that this thread had grown so long - what are we at, nine pages now! I confess that I haven't even read Pages 2 thru 7. As far as I know, I haven't been yelling. (Am I yelling now?) I merely write in my conversational "voice," and if you perceive my tone to be yelling then the problem is yours, my friend.

 

Avbug...aw sheesh, WTF, why do I even bother? As far as you criticizing my level of Christian-ness, please don't bother, just stop. YOU are not a judge of how "Christian" a person is or isn't. *I* am not a judge - other than I can say with authority that an atheist is by definition *not* a Christian. Okay, sweetie? Just be quiet now. Deal?

 

Look, radical extremists of any kind are no good, okay? I'm not fond of these religious radicals any more than you are, Mr. "West" (if that indeed is your real name). I don't like people who swear that God "tells" them things (hello, Mormons?). I believe that the Creator ("God" if you will) is inside of all of us, and that we are inside of Him. God is love. God would never tell me to hurt or kill anyone...ANYONE...or to do evil. God does not speak to me...or anyone else for that matter, nor do I speak for Him. God is not my "invisible friend." It's like John Lennon wrote: "I am He as you are He and you are me and we are all together." See? Even Lennon got it!

 

I started this thread with the simple message that I believe that atheists are not fit to be pilots due to their limited, narrow-minded thinking. I still feel that way. I'm not saying that atheists are bad people...or that they're immoral or whatever. I am saying that they apparently and evidently cannot think outside of their small scientific box...and sometimes pilots have to be able to do that, to "make it up as they go along" and use the creative side of their brain to confidently come up with a solution to a problem that might not be already thought of and printed in a manual. The best pilots know this, and can do it with ease...with faith

 

 

 

[helonorth]

Are you in love with Maria Langer? You seem to be obsessed with her.

[Nearly Retired]

What's it to you? And why do you even care?

[palmfish]

I confess that I haven't even read Pages 2 thru 7.

You started a discussion with an outrageous title and premise and illogical argument and havent bothered to read 90% of the responses?

 

A significant number of responses have been of the "train wreck" variety and of little contribution to the discussion, but there have also been many well thought out, articulate, and intellectual responses to the original premise. And you have chosen to ignore them.

 

So clarify for me, who exactly are you calling narrow-minded?

[avbug]

Why are believers so afraid to address my challenges? Because they are weak which is more proof that religion is simply mythology.

 

Your "challenges are weak. In that, your'e correct. They're jaded and incorrect, use incorrect claims and assertions, and are so heavily biased as to lack adequate credibility to merit a serious response. Furthermore, as you're so fond of returning to the Bible, doubtless you're familiar with the counsel not to cast one's pearls before swine. To engage in discussion regarding your twisted logic would indeed be to cast those pearls in the wrong place.

 

You just made the claim that a weak argument is proof. Such is bad science. Very bad science. It's also very poor logic, which is hardly scientific.

 

So faith and science don't mix. If faith/prayer worked, there would be no need for science. The fact is this: Prayer never works because 'god' is imaginary.

 

Again, bad logic. Also a gross misunderstanding of what constitutes prayer. You appear to assert that prayer consists of asking for things and getting them. Any other combination of communication between man and whomever it is in whom man believes must therefore not exist. You fiat into the argument false ideas and assertions, and then argue on the basis of those. Such an argument is deceitful and a lie.

 

There is no dividing line between faith and science. You've perhaps never heard the valid assertion that one ought to pray as though everything depends upon God, and act as though everything depends upon you. You appear to be entirely unfamiliar with Paul's biblical admonition to "prove all things, hold fast to that which is good." You appear entirely ignorant of the basis of all Christian faith; to work out your own salvation before God. Not pray and have it all handed to you. Not lay there and lift not a finger to help yourself. The premise is to work unceasingly until one's dying day to live a life in line with the principles of Christianity.

 

You have a deeply flawed understanding of faith. You seem to think it's some kind of blind obedience. It's nothing of the kind. Certainly Christ never taught blind obedience, and whereas he was known as a rebel and a figure of civil disobedience (for which he was ultimately put to death), he taught the opposite of what you describe.

 

Faith has nothing to do with making an assumption that God will do everything up on a simple prayer or request. No serious religion makes any such assertion. Your insinuation otherwise, therefore, is a lie.

 

Christ taught that unbelief is okay. If one can exercise any faith, he asserted, begin with the small effort as insignificant as grain of a mustard seed. Don't swallow the whole enchilada without tasting first, and don't simply follow someone blindly.

 

Which principle of faith upsets you so much? Loving one's neighbor? Doing good to those who spitefully use you? Helping the sick? Feeding the hungry? Serving your fellow man? Evil stuff, there. Christ taught a higher law. The law already forbid adultery; cheating on one's spouse. Christ taught that to look on another woman with lust meant one had already committed adultery in one's heart. He taught an elevated ethos and a higher level of thinking, and living. If a man asks you to go a mile with him, then go two. Today we call it going the extra mile; a Christian ethic, and it's taught in the military, in business, in church, at all levels of customer service, and is a guiding principle for charitable, ethical behavior. This offends you, does it?

 

Now, since believers brought it on, then you must suffer the consequences. Science HAS shown that all religions and all superstitions are man-made.

 

Another lie, of course. Science has never shown that all religion is man-made, and science cannot. The existence of God cannot be proven or disproven, nor is there any reason to do so. Consequences? Your validation or attempted invalidation of faith or the existence of a creator has no bearing or impact on the actual existence of a creator, nor on the efficacy of faith. Simply put, your validation is not needed.

 

Example 1) I prayed for a good grade and I got it. What about people who did not pray for a good grade but got a good grade? How is this explained? That another invisible friend, Satan, helped the non-believer?

 

Your example presupposes the notion that God has anything to do with the grade in the first place. God doesn't grant good grades. God doesn't force learning into one's head. This isn't the Matrix.

 

People who get good grades work for them. One may pray that one will do one's best, but God helps those who help themselves. If someone doesn't get a good grade, then they haven't adequately prepared, or perhaps they've failed to get adequate rest. There is no principle that overrides free will, which is the basic premise of all Christianity. Mankind has free will. God will not force man to do anything, and Satan cannot. Belief and faith don't make one get good grades, nor is there any principle founded in any valid Christian teaching that directs otherwise.

 

Your assertion to the contrary is a lie. Show me a fundamental Christian precept that states otherwise.

 

Example 2) I prayed for a beautiful wife and I got one. What about people who didn't pray for a beautiful wife but got one? How do you explain this?

 

What has prayer got to do with it? My own children have asked me for things many times. Last week one son asked me for a shotgun. I did not give it to him. Another asked me today for a motorcycle. My answer was no.

 

My daughter asked me for a book by a particular author. I bought her two. Does the fact that one child got what he or she asked for and another did not mean that I don't exist? I think not. Does it mean that there is no value in asking? Clearly not. Does it mean that taking no thought but to ask will result in free stuff from Dad? No. I told the son who wants a motorcycle to get a job. I may help him find one. I told the one who wants the shotgun that we will see. We shall.

 

Does finding a wife mean that there is a God? No. Does not finding a wife mean there is no God? No. Perhaps I am a slob. Perhaps I'm not worthy of a good woman. Perhaps I pray for a wife, and God answers that prayer in a way I don't expect. I wreck my car. I lose my job. I'm forced to walk to a new job. My legs go strong, I lose 40 pounds, and I began to watch my budget closely. I go back to school, find a new career, and thanks to the prompting that pushed me in that direction, I look better, feel better, am more financially secure, and become a more attractive prospect to the sort of women I might like to meet. Is that an answer to a prayer? It could be, but there's much more to the story.

 

Faith isn't simply belief. Belief is belief. Faith is something else entirely. Faith is a verb. It's requires effort and action. Faith is the act of not just thinking something is true, it's the act of doing something about it. One may believe one's parachute is in good working order and has been packed correctly. Faith is the act of stepping out the door and trying it out. Faith isn't a trite assertion that it's up to God to open that parachute. Faith is having it inspected and the reserve recently repacked, staying jump current, using proper procedures and equipment, jumping in acceptable conditions consistent with one's training and experience, and of avoiding unnecessary risks. Faith is putting one's convictions to the test, making no assumptions. Faith is following in the footsteps. Faith is active, exhausting. Faith is effort, faith is strength, faith is work. Faith is a verb.

Edited October 17, 2013 by avbug

[aeroscout]

Sounds like someone else we know.

 

I wonder if Mike and Nearly Retired are the same person, someone with a violent internal conflict and severe mental health issues.

I think you are way out of line accusing someone on this forum of having severe mental health issues. You should retract that, and apologize. If you don't I am quite sure I will report you.

 

 

edit

After getting a "Like" by terminal_velo I reported him.

Edited October 17, 2013 by aeroscout

[Counterrotate]

The problem with the atheist argument thus far, is that some of us (those on the atheist side of the argument) are claiming to know with certainty that there is NOT a creator. This is as much a fallacy as claiming to know with certainty that there IS one.

 

Where I draw the line is that I distrust the methods that brought about the idea of a creator. Particularly modern monotheism. I am a bit of a history buff, and I have developed the opinion based on my studies of history that religion is a mechanism, created by people, for the purposes of controlling people. So, my train of thought is, if the source of the idea is suspect, the idea is suspect as well.

 

But that does not mean I refute the POSSIBILITY of a creator. In fact, I have even entertained such thoughts as what if. The best I could do is that the creator, if there is one, is probably NOTHING like a monotheistic God, and probably a lot more like the core energy that most Wiccans believe in. So, if I were to apply that to what I feel and see, I would say: God is Gravity. Gravity, the mysterious force that attracts matter. Even the experts are stumped by it. It is by it's nature almost as unknowable as the Christian God. But I can feel it, and see it's effects, and it's pretty reliable, so I put my faith in Gravity. Despite all that we don't know about it, it is the force that binds us all and everything around us. I have faith that if something goes wrong up in the air, Gravity will pull me back to the earth.

[avbug]

So, if I were to apply that to what I feel and see, I would say: God is Gravity. Gravity, the mysterious force that attracts matter. Even the experts are stumped by it. It is by it's nature almost as unknowable as the Christian God. But I can feel it, and see it's effects, and it's pretty reliable, so I put my faith in Gravity.

Actually, gravity is basic physics as can be calculated as a function of proximal distance between two objects of a given mass. It's really not that mysterious.

[Mike West]

What lengths adults will go to support the belief in an invisible friend. Quite bizarre.

 

About science. Gravity is not mass attracting mass, this has been known since 1905. Gravity is mass traveling through spacetime. The majority of scientists know that evolutionary biology is one of the most solid scientific theories in science and that gravity (General Relativity, one of Einstein's famous five papers written in 1905) is still one of the most controversial and misunderstood scientific theories.

 

Among the religious, evolutionary biology is not true and gravity is an accepted scientific fact. Do you see how religious belief distorts something as simple as understanding basic science? Believers have to do everything possible to shore up their belief in an invisible friend.

 

Yet, now that believers know that gravity is an actual controversial scientific theory, you don't see believers damning science for not understanding all aspects of gravity.

[Mike West]

So here is the problem with religious belief in a nutshell. Believers claim to have big answers (For example, "We know how was the universe created".) Yet, ask a believer small questions and they fold or fail to answer the question every time.

 

Christians claim that prayer works. In fact, "God" instructed believers, in Matthew 18:19, 19 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven."

 

This is quite an easy Bible verse to understand and I take this verse very seriously because is a direct quote from your "god". Helping people is a key part of Christianity according to a believer writing comments on this board.

 

Please answer this small question. If prayer worked, why aren't Christians staffing ambulances & EMT helicopters, and healing people on the spot? Why don't ministers replace the doctors in hospitals and get rid of the operating rooms and all the medicine? Why aren't believers healing their own teeth? No one would need dentists.

 

With the power of pray, "god" could heal everyone, or at least, a lot of people. These would be selfless acts, would show caring for others, many believers would do this without getting paid, it would reduce healthcare costs by billions and most people would then believe in the religious cult of Christianity. It's a win-win-win-win-win for the Christians!!

 

Believers claim to have the answers to big answers but choke on small questions.

[avbug]

 

Christians claim that prayer works. In fact, "God" instructed believers, in Matthew 18:19, 19 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven."

This is quite an easy Bible verse to understand and I take this verse very seriously because is a direct quote from your "god". Helping people is a key part of Christianity according to a believer writing comments on this board.

 

 

If these passages are so easy to understand, why do you misunderstand them so much?

 

The chapter to which you refer begins with Christ instructing his apostles; Those men were instructed in matters not pertaining to the masses, and Christ was answering questions directed to them. These matters were recorded after the fact, and have been translated and retranslated over two millenia. The decision as to what accounts were acceptable and cannon for scripture was made by vote in a council, not by revelation.

 

There is nothing in the scripture you've cited which suggests in any way, shape, or form that whatever you ask for, you get. Rather, the apostles, chosen as special witnesses for Christ, were instructed that what they bind on earth is bound in heaven, and then within the narrow confines of their duties. That scripture cannot be taken to mean that if you pray for a washing machine, you automatically get a washing machine, or that the answer to any prayer is yes.

 

Please answer this small question. If prayer worked, why aren't Christians staffing ambulances & EMT helicopters, and healing people on the spot? Why don't ministers replace the doctors in hospitals and get rid of the operating rooms and all the medicine? Why aren't believers healing their own teeth? No one would need dentists.

 

 

Don't be obtuse.

 

You presume to tell God what to do? You think that you or anyone else is so bold or so foolish as to presume preeminence over God, with the arrogance to think that simply asking for something entitles you to have it?

 

"I prayed for my teeth to be fixed and it didn't happen" is hardly a scientific analysis of the efficacy of a prayer. Is the person praying worthy of the prayer, and is the request made for a valid righteous purpose? Is that purpose in line with a higher purpose? A child might beg a parent to get out of receiving an immunization shot. The parent knows the child needs the shot. Simply because the child asked, is the parent going to cave in and cancel the immunization? Of course not.

 

Years ago a friend of mine lost a number of friends in the crash of an aircraft; it was loaded with skydivers. "How could God let that happen?" my friend asked.

 

Let it happen? Who made the choice to get on board and bought a jump ticket to do so? Who maintained the aircraft? Blame it on God? Too easy.

 

Pray for a million dollars and when it doesn't materialize in front of you, you've now got scientific proof that prayer doesn't "work?" Bad science. You understand neither prayer nor science.

 

You remind me of the scientist who removes a fly's wings and orders the fly to walk. The fly walks. The scientist makes a note, then removes one of the fly's legs. The scientist commands the fly to walk, and it walks. Again the scientist removes a leg, gives the command, and the fly walks. The process continues until the fly has one remaining leg and the scientist commands the fly, and the fly drags itself forward in a lurching, pathetic effort to walk. At last the scientist uses his tweezers to pluck off the remaining leg and orders the fly to walk. The fly doesn't move. Again, the scientist commands the fly, and again the fly remains immobile. The scientist records the results, thinks a few moments, then pens his conclusion. "Remove a fly's legs, and it can't hear."

 

Bad science.

 

A man sat on his porch as the flood waters came, watching the water rise. A row boat arrived and two men in the boat called out to the man on the porch. "Get it!" We will carry you to safety."

 

"No thanks," the man replied. "I have faith that the Lord will save me."

 

Several hours later the man was on his roof, his house now underwater, when a motorboat sped toward him. A small crowd in the boat beckoned to the man, bidding him to climb aboard. "Get in! We have just enough room to carry you away to safety."

 

"Thank you, but no." Said the man. "I have faith in the Lord. He will save me."

 

The man stood on his chimney, clutching the tip of his television aerial for support, craning his neck to stay above the waters, which continued to rise. A helicopter approached and a rope ladder fell down beneath. A man in a helmet with a dark visor motioned to the ladder, indicating the man on the roof should climb aboard.

 

The man on the roof, battered by rotor wash and losing strength to hold on, weakly waved the helicopter away, and cried out "No! I have faith in the Lord. He will save me." The helicopter left in search of more willing people to rescue. The man, unable to hold on any longer, drowned. The man found himself standing before God, and he cried out "Lord, I had faith in you. I cried to you, I thought you would answer my prayers. Why didn't you save me?"

 

God looked upon the man thoughtfully, and replied "What do you want from me? I sent you two boats and a helicopter."

Edited October 17, 2013 by avbug