R44 IMC Crash

[aeroscout]

 

All I've done is tours, ferries, and photos,...you know, typical low time Robbie stuff. I've had this argument about the IR before, so I know I stand on the minority side of it, but I still think my money would have been better spent on something like the Advanced EP course at Western, or even a long line intro!

 

I could care less if I ever fly under a hood again!

 

As for IIMC survival? Well, as long as I stick to the go/no-go decision making skills I learned during my VFR training, I won't have to deal with it!

I've never gone inadvertently into IMC, but I have come close often enough to be thankful I had my instrument rating. In addition, I have had some extensive upset and aerobatic training so those skills blend nicely together. I'm not going to claim I could be immune to loss of control of the aircraft from loss of situational awareness, but I am confident that if I keep those skills honed I will have the best defense.

[UH60L-IP]

 

All I've done is tours, ferries, and photos,...you know, typical low time Robbie stuff. I've had this argument about the IR before, so I know I stand on the minority side of it, but I still think my money would have been better spent on something like the Advanced EP course at Western, or even a long line intro!

 

I could care less if I ever fly under a hood again!

 

As for IIMC survival? Well, as long as I stick to the go/no-go decision making skills I learned during my VFR training, I won't have to deal with it!

 

I'm assuming you haven't been a pilot very long. If so, you probably wouldn't be making such statements.

 

What did your VFR training (likely from another low-time pilot) tell you about taking off in the morning in clear blue weather with sunshine forecast all day when you crest that rolling hill into some low fog at which time you turn around and find that you are being socked in there too? What did your VFR training tell you about flying right into that invisible cloud bank on an otherwise calm and clear night?

 

Weather changes fast my friend and you are not immune.

 

Like many, you could care less about ever flying hood again. That's fine. However, flying hood is not something we do because it is fun. It is something we do because it is a necessary part of being a professional pilot.

 

While I fly actual IMC on a very regular basis, on purpose of course, I cannot imagine chalking up the skill even if I didn't. To say that your go/no-go decision making skills means that you'll "never have to deal with it" is what we instructors refer to as a "hazardous attitude."

[pilot#476398]

 

I'm assuming you haven't been a pilot very long. If so, you probably wouldn't be making such statements.

 

What did your VFR training (likely from another low-time pilot) tell you about taking off in the morning in clear blue weather with sunshine forecast all day when you crest that rolling hill into some low fog at which time you turn around and find that you are being socked in there too? What did your VFR training tell you about flying right into that invisible cloud bank on an otherwise calm and clear night?

 

 

 

These debates are always entertaining, so ok, I'll play.

 

Since I'll be flying an R22 with no IFR instruments, what does your IFR experience say I should do?

[UH60L-IP]

 

These debates are always entertaining, so ok, I'll play.

 

Since I'll be flying an R22 with no IFR instruments, what does your IFR experience say I should do?

 

I'm not trying to play with you, debate, nor be necessarily entertaining.

 

But since you asked for a little instruction, and I've got an hour or two in an R-22 (1000+) in some mountainous and weather prone environments, in addition to being an Army instrument instructor, I'll give it to you.

 

While not certificated for IFR, nor recommended for IFR by any stretch, every helicopter has some basic instruments that will assist you in at least saving your own life (and those of your passengers) in the event that IIMC occurs.

 

- Airspeed indicator

- Altimeter

- Vertical speed indicator

- Compass

- Torque or manifold pressure gauge

- Compass

- Trim strings

- Turn coordinator (optional in R-22)

- Attitude indicator (optional in R-22)

- VOR receiver (optional in R-22)

 

These instruments, taken together, become your power and control instruments.

 

IIMC - Think "Attitude, Heading, Torque (manifold pressure), Airspeed, and Trim."

 

Using your Compass (TC, AI), set your attitude so as not to turn right or left, except to avoid known obstacles. Use your Torque (manifold pressure) to maintain your pre-determined power setting (what you noted previously for straight and level). Set a cruise (or climb/descent) airspeed. Observe your VSI/ALT and keep it within ~300FPM in the R-22. Maintain yourself in trim so as not to negatively affect a/s or other settings/indications nor exacerbate visual/vestibular/proprioceptive illusions.

 

You may now climb, descend, or maintain level flight based solely upon your gauges and minor corrections/changes. Even turning can be accomplished if your knowledge that a standard rate turn is 3 degrees per second dictates your minor inputs. Your observation of this heading change can also help you to prevent a turn.

 

Nobody is arguing that you will be shooting an ILS in a R-22 (though R-22 instrument trainers do exist). I am simply asserting that if you are skilled in instruments you will at least be able to accomplish a controlled descent (or climb) without becoming a statistic. It will not likely be pretty but ugly is still better than dead. If you can survive the first several seconds of IIMC you will likely live.

 

I would assert that if you or anyone else beyond a new private pilot does not feel capable of surviving IIMC conditions, it's time to seek out some training and sharpen those skills.

[JCM5]

We are getting off topic here. There's no such thing as bad or useless knowledge, and there's really no sense in arguing that having an instrument rating means you have a valuable bank of experience and training that you wouldn't have without it. Whether or not it would save your life in the event of IIMC....I'm not sure about that. You might last longer, but in my opinion, you're f*cked either way and your survival would be thanks to dumb luck. Which brings me back to the pilot in question...

 

 

An instrument rating wouldn't have saved this pilot from running his helicopter into a tree. There is only one factor at play here, and that is a lack of sound ADM. Unfortunately, no amount of pilot training can force someone into using common sense. Hazardous attitudes are a real thing. Some people just don't get it, and they end up becoming a statistic. It's a miracle that the pilot and his passenger walked away from this crash.

[aeroscout]

We are getting off topic here. There's no such thing as bad or useless knowledge, and there's really no sense in arguing that having an instrument rating means you have a valuable bank of experience and training that you wouldn't have without it. Whether or not it would save your life in the event of IIMC....I'm not sure about that. You might last longer, but in my opinion, you're f*cked either way and your survival would be thanks to dumb luck. Which brings me back to the pilot in question...

 

 

An instrument rating wouldn't have saved this pilot from running his helicopter into a tree. There is only one factor at play here, and that is a lack of sound ADM. Unfortunately, no amount of pilot training can force someone into using common sense. Hazardous attitudes are a real thing. Some people just don't get it, and they end up becoming a statistic. It's a miracle that the pilot and his passenger walked away from this crash.

It wouldn't be the first time a lack of good ADM got someone into big trouble. Or the first time lack of good IFR skills prevented someone from getting out.

[pilot#476398]

 

I'm not trying to play with you, debate, nor be necessarily entertaining.

 

But since you asked for a little instruction, and I've got an hour or two in an R-22 (1000+) in some mountainous and weather prone environments, in addition to being an Army instrument instructor, I'll give it to you.

 

While not certificated for IFR, nor recommended for IFR by any stretch, every helicopter has some basic instruments that will assist you in at least saving your own life (and those of your passengers) in the event that IIMC occurs.

 

- Airspeed indicator

- Altimeter

- Vertical speed indicator

- Compass

- Torque or manifold pressure gauge

- Compass

- Trim strings

- Turn coordinator (optional in R-22)

- Attitude indicator (optional in R-22)

- VOR receiver (optional in R-22)

 

These instruments, taken together, become your power and control instruments.

 

IIMC - Think "Attitude, Heading, Torque (manifold pressure), Airspeed, and Trim."

 

Using your Compass (TC, AI), set your attitude so as not to turn right or left, except to avoid known obstacles. Use your Torque (manifold pressure) to maintain your pre-determined power setting (what you noted previously for straight and level). Set a cruise (or climb/descent) airspeed. Observe your VSI/ALT and keep it within ~300FPM in the R-22. Maintain yourself in trim so as not to negatively affect a/s or other settings/indications nor exacerbate visual/vestibular/proprioceptive illusions.

 

You may now climb, descend, or maintain level flight based solely upon your gauges and minor corrections/changes. Even turning can be accomplished if your knowledge that a standard rate turn is 3 degrees per second dictates your minor inputs. Your observation of this heading change can also help you to prevent a turn.

 

Nobody is arguing that you will be shooting an ILS in a R-22 (though R-22 instrument trainers do exist). I am simply asserting that if you are skilled in instruments you will at least be able to accomplish a controlled descent (or climb) without becoming a statistic. It will not likely be pretty but ugly is still better than dead. If you can survive the first several seconds of IIMC you will likely live.

 

I would assert that if you or anyone else beyond a new private pilot does not feel capable of surviving IIMC conditions, it's time to seek out some training and sharpen those skills

 

Having neither a TC nor AI (as I already mentioned) I would love to see someone keep an R22 upright in the fog with the compass!

[Wally]

 

He had an altimeter and an attitude indicator. And GPS. What else do you need?

 

Uh... "Knowledge, awareness, training, proficiency, proper equipment"- and a survivable plan? I suspect it was dark early evening with a close temp/dewpoint. Start giving fog some serious consideration in your planning at times like that.

[JCM5]

Uh... "Knowledge, awareness, training, proficiency, proper equipment"- and a survivable plan? I suspect it was dark early evening with a close temp/dewpoint. Start giving fog some serious consideration in your planning at times like that.

Not sure if you caught my sarcasm.

 

But you suspect correctly. It was full dark, and already foggy. We've been in a heavy fog cycle for nearly two weeks up here in Seattle. Difficult to comprehend the thought process that led to this incident.

[nightsta1ker]

Anyone arguing that an instrument rating or instrument proficiency is going to be a life saver when going IIMC in an aircraft that is not certified for instrument flight is misguided. The problem with IIMC is that even an IFR rated and proficient pilot may not make the critical transition to their instruments in time to avoid losing control of the aircraft. When flying VFR at night, you might not even realize you have lost your visual reference until it is too late.

 

And sure, I don't have nearly as much time as UH60L-IP claims to have, but I will tell you the most valuable lesson I learned when I got my Instrument rating: I would probably not survive for 30 seconds if I went IIMC in an R22, even assuming it had an attitude indicator. If anything, my Instrument rating reinforced the need for good ADM on the ground so that I can avoid a IIMC situation, especially at night, when darkness makes weather invisible and increases your chances of disorientation. I am sure JCM5 can relate that flying in the PNW means that you have to face some pretty questionable weather for a good portion of the year. Just because it's legal doesn't always mean it's a good idea. And what may be acceptably safe for a day flight can turn deadly at night. There have been many IFR rated pilots that took off VFR at night and had a IIMC CFIT accident that cost them, and their passengers, their lives.

 

I'm not saying it's impossible to survive IIMC, but it is certainly improbable, even with all the appropriate tools in your toolbox. Training and experience do not make up for poor ADM!

[aeroscout]

I see what nightsta1ker is talking about. I would hope that especially at night the artificial horizon or attitude indicator was in the scan, and got scanned frequently. Where I think a lot of these IIMC mishaps go wrong is making a big last minute play to stay out of, or get out of the cloud you just got into. As a result of being outside the aircraft trying to get into the "hole", or out of the cloud, now you haven't scanned your AI in awhile, so you are unaware of your now excessive AOB or pitch which by then may be unrecoverable.

[nightsta1ker]

I see what nightsta1ker is talking about. I would hope that especially at night the artificial horizon or attitude indicator was in the scan, and got scanned frequently. Where I think a lot of these IIMC mishaps go wrong is making a big last minute play to stay out of, or get out of the cloud you just got into. As a result of being outside the aircraft trying to get into the "hole", or out of the cloud, now you haven't scanned your AI in awhile, so you are unaware of your now excessive AOB or pitch which by then may be unrecoverable.

Assuming you follow UH60L-IP's advice and go directly to instruments, maintain level attitude and try and climb or descend, climbing may lead you into icing conditions (extremely common in the PNW) that can be just as deadly as a slab of granite. Descending may take you all the way to the scene of the crash before you break through into VFR again. Trying to turn around is probably where most pilots get disoriented and lose control of the aircraft. IIMC in a helicopter is a bad deal, and should be avoided at all costs. I have to wonder how many dead pilots thought that their AI and Instrument rating would enable them to survive if they went IIMC.

[UH60L-IP]

And sure, I don't have nearly as much time as UH60L-IP claims to have......

 

Seems like a jab.

 

Just how many hours did I claim to have anyway?

[UH60L-IP]

Assuming you follow UH60L-IP's advice and go directly to instruments, maintain level attitude and try and climb or descend, climbing may lead you into icing conditions (extremely common in the PNW) that can be just as deadly as a slab of granite. Descending may take you all the way to the scene of the crash before you break through into VFR again. Trying to turn around is probably where most pilots get disoriented and lose control of the aircraft. IIMC in a helicopter is a bad deal, and should be avoided at all costs. I have to wonder how many dead pilots thought that their AI and Instrument rating would enable them to survive if they went IIMC.

 

So we should follow your advice and give up because we're as good as dead anyway?

 

To answer your last question, probably a few less than those that threw their hands up and said, "Oh well. Gotta go some time."

 

.....and if you're IIMC, icing is about the least of your concerns.

 

I would agree on one point - attempting to turn around is one of the worst things that a pilot can do. One must turn only to avoid known obstacles. As to climbing or descending - unless you punch out you gotta do one or the other at some point. That controlled descent is a calculated risk but perhaps the best of the worst.

[nightsta1ker]

 

Seems like a jab.

 

Just how many hours did I claim to have anyway?

We'll start with that 1000+ in the R22 you mentioned. And I am assuming at least 500 in military aircraft if you are an IP (and probably more). And for the record, that was not intended as a jab.

 

 

 

So we should follow your advice and give up because we're as good as dead anyway?

 

To answer your last question, probably a few less than those that threw their hands up and said, "Oh well. Gotta go some time."

 

.....and if you're IIMC, icing is about the least of your concerns.

 

I would agree on one point - attempting to turn around is one of the worst things that a pilot can do. One must turn only to avoid known obstacles. As to climbing or descending - unless you punch out you gotta do one or the other at some point. That controlled descent is a calculated risk but perhaps the best of the worst.

 

Please don't put words in my mouth. And don't get defensive. I am merely trying to highlight that training and experience are no excuse to take off at night when the weather is questionable. I would never encourage anyone to just give up.

 

I guess I took point on it because you seemed to be of the opinion that if a pilot is proficient at instrument flying that they can get through an IIMC encounter and I disagree with that. Sure, the techniques you listed are your best bet in those conditions, but if you are in those conditions to begin with, you are between a rock and a hard place, and luck will play more of a role in your survival than instrument proficiency (assuming you even have the instruments you need in the first place).

 

As far as ice goes, Western Washington has some of the most prevalent icing conditions in the country, and moderate to severe icing is often encountered at relatively low altitudes during fall through spring time frame. Icing on rotor blades can be very problematic. Add that to a IIMC situation...

[pilot#476398]

No one (on this forum) ever seems to think that turning around is a good idea, but I've only known one pilot who got into IIMC and that's exactly what he did! He and the helicopter made it out just fine!

 

Stroke of luck? Sure, but no one's getting out of IIMC alive without luck!

[d10]

IIMC is perfectly survivable if a pilot commits to instruments and I don't know anyone with significant IFR time who would say otherwise. Even in an R-22. The dangerous part is in those first few seconds where you still think you can maintain VFR and you're probably dangerously low and slow already from scud running too long. If you can transition to instruments before you kill yourself and you're a competent instrument pilot your chances of survival are similar to any other routine flight.

 

Surviving without an attitude indicator is more difficult, but you still have all of the instruments you need to determine your attitude. This is all covered in the Instrument Flying Handbook. I can't say I could do it myself right now, but only because I've never felt the need to practice more than a few times for fun. If I was flying a helicopter without an attitude indicator I'd be sure to set aside enough time to make myself competent at reading the secondary attitude instruments.

[JDHelicopterPilot]

It is important to be able to avoid IIMC. That said, it does happen. Now, with out going into my entire IIMC presentation, one aspect of it includes conducting an instrument approach. If you have gone IIMC, follow the procedures correctly and ATC (and you) are unable to find the nearest VMC then you will need to conduct an instrument approach. With no Instrument rating you would have 0% change at pulling that off. With an Instrument rating and some basic instruments you would have a much better chance. Say, better than (0%).

[palmfish]

The Army's mantra for IIMC is Announce IMC, Climb power, Level wings, Maintain heading, Climb Airspeed, Contact ATC. Climb and maintain heading unless there is a known obstacle is drilled into every Army aviator. This is critical during formation flight.

 

Me? Of course every situation is unique, but If I was in the clear one second and IMC the next, I will first and foremost maintain control of the aircraft as I transition to instruments and strongly consider a 180 degree turn back to known VMC.

 

The current conditions must of course be taken into consideration. Is icing a threat? Is there terrain nearby? How high am I? Etc...

[Lindsey]

IIMC is perfectly survivable if a pilot commits to instruments and I don't know anyone with significant IFR time who would say otherwise. Even in an R-22.

 

I'm not too sure about that. An R-22 isn't nearly as stable as you think it is, let alone in an actual IIMC situation when the pilot is probably freaking out. The second problem is most R-22 pilots don't have significant IFR time. Even those with instrument ratings just simply do not have the IFR time. In fact, they won't have ANY actual IFR time, since the R-22 is not certificated for it. Just simulated IFR. So imagine your typical R-22 pilot who has literally zero IMC time. They could have been a great pilot during "instruments" but in an unstable standard R22 with pretty crappy instruments (and most don't have anything other than your standard gauges), I'd wager most pilots (as happens) would not survive.

 

That said, I am a big fan of what UH-60L IP was saying regarding the high value in continuing to practice even basic attitude flying just by using the basic instruments. I think it definitely could save some lives, and if I hadn't just left my instructing job to fly for the Army I would *definitely* start incorporating that into some lessons. It wouldn't save everybody, but I don't think anyone is arguing that. It could definitely save a few.

 

And 60L understands NW flying, guys. No need to keep lecturing about how foggy it gets. He knows--he used to fly here.

[palmfish]

OTOH, if it gets dark at 7:00 and its been foggy every night, and there's a small temp/dew point spread and fog is forecast, I'm not going flying in a VMC aircraft. Period.

[Lindsey]

OTOH, if it gets dark at 7:00 and its been foggy every night, and there's a small temp/dew point spread and fog is forecast, I'm not going flying in a VMC aircraft. Period.

 

Agreed. Unfortunately there will always be those who don't think they'll ever become a statistic.

[palmfish]

Sad but true Lindsey. Get homeitis is a powerful motivator - and CFIT is the too often end result.

[pilot#476398]

During my whopping 40 hours under the hood in a Robbie I got pretty good at attitude/instrument flying, but take away the AI and the TC (not to mention every other IFR instrument) put me in the fog and I'm going to be upside-down before I can even say, "Oh' sh*t,...I can't see sh*t!"

 

My instrument training (current or not) is NOT going to increase my odds at surviving IIMC in an R22,...a Bell 222 maybe?, but not an R22 (or even an R44 for that matter)!

 

The only way to increase my odds for surviving IIMC is to develope (and stick to) good ADM. If I find myself in the fog, in a VFR helicopter, my ADM has failed!

[JCM5]

OTOH, if it gets dark at 7:00 and its been foggy every night, and there's a small temp/dew point spread and fog is forecast, I'm not going flying in a VMC aircraft. Period.

This.