SBuzzkill Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 (edited) You may have made good decisions throughout the flight and still find yourself stuck. The funny thing about the atmosphere that we fly in is that it's not completely predictable. You're not always going to be flying in an area with good weather forecasting and one of these days you may find yourself in a pickle. IFR training will not help you out but IIMC training will. Get yourself used to making the transition to instruments quickly and develop procedures to get yourself to safety. The biggest thing in my opinion is to commit to the instruments and don't try to go for that sucker hole or the quick 180 back out of it. I know a few guys who have been IIMC and while it scared the sh*t out of all of them, they all made it back. There's a reason we include IIMC in our mission briefs. You have multiple crews of good decision makers and we still take it seriously and don't go blindly under the belief that "hey it wont happen to us because we'll make good decisions." No, we make a plan and we train with that plan and accept that the environment we operate in is dynamic and can bite us in the ass. Edited October 21, 2013 by SBuzzkill 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Pig Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 What is never discussed in this topic, or I missed it, is that it doesn't matter how well anyone did under the hood or how well you performed on your check ride. The adrenaline and psychological factors can and will be intense if you don't have a decent amount of real IFR time. Even then, knowing that I am heading out on an intended IFR flight even in an airplane brings up the awareness level. I worked with a helicopter pilot who was not instrument rated. I have about 90hrs of instrument airplane time. This pilots defense was that he could "fight through it and win" if he ever got into IMC. This guy just had no foundation to even make his argument, but he "knew" that if he ever got into IMC he would be OK. Doesn't matter that the gyros in the helicopter were marginal on their best day. He couldn't remember how long it took to make a standard rate turn, the helicopter actually didn't have a turn coordinator. It was a pretty funny discussion. I've only been in inadvertent IMC once. It was at night doing an orbiting, rolling surveillance on NVGs. Next thing I know, everything is solid green and my sensor operator in the back says "hey something happened to the camera". It took a tremendous amount of brain power to transition from outside to inside on instruments to roll us level. In my case the plane was set up with all the bells and whistles so I just turned on the auto pilot and turned the heading bug 180 deg. The cloud was literally the only cloud over central CA and I managed to fly through it. We were in a left hand turn, standard rate, controlled by the auto pilot. All the instruments, GPS, engine noises, all confirmed all was going well but I would have bet you money I was in a right hand climb. So to say "I'll just rely on my ADM and not have to worry about it." Ehhhhhhh..... Ok. That's like saying "if I follow all the traffic laws I'll never have an accident. ". Should I have seen it coming with NVGs on? Yeah probably. Did I? Obviously not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikemv Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 To All, "Avoidance" is the key and yes things still happen. NTSB stats about loss of Situational Awareness (SA), IIMC is loss at Level I, show 34 fatal accidents out of 37. "Avoidance" is the key! Here is a link to the USHST fact sheet I wrote. http://www.ihst.org/portals/54/insights/Training_IIMC.pdf "Avoidance" is the key. Link to other resources: http://www.ihst.org/Default.aspx?tabid=3089&language=en-US "Avoidance" is the key and once you go IIMC, "The ground is not your friend". Mike 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helonorth Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 I think something you state in your fact sheet needs to be corrected. It says that of the 52 IIMC accidents that occurred in 2011, 45 were fatal, "giving you a 14% survivability rate if you go IIMC!"I would say this is not true since not all IIMC encounters result in accidents. How many pilots went inadvertent in 2011? I'm guessing a whole lot more than 52. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDHelicopterPilot Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 I think something you state in your fact sheet needs to be corrected. It says that of the 52 IIMC accidents that occurred in 2011, 45 were fatal, "giving you a 14% survivability rate if you go IIMC!"I would say this is not true since not all IIMC encounters result in accidents. How many pilots went inadvertent in 2011? I'm guessing a whole lot more than 52. It is correct because it only refers to accidents. Those that crashed following IIMC only 14% survived. I understand your point though. it would be nice to know how many went IIMC and didn't crash. Those stats are not reportable. I will say it again, yes it is important to avoid IIMC but what are you going to do if you find yourself it it? It is best to have a plan and not need it. The last resort of the IIMC procedure involves making an instrument approach. Thus, having an instrument rating is valuable. It is required by VFR operators for a reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helonorth Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 (edited) That's not what it says, though. It says you have a 14% rate of survivability "if you go IIMC". It does NOT say if you go IIMC and have an accident, which it should. I would say it's poorly worded and misleading in an an otherwise good article with good advice. I would add an additional C, for Commit. The first thing you need to do is accept and commit to the situation. Mucking around trying to regain VMC is probably what kills most people. A instrumented rated pilot with an attitude indicator should have no problem keeping the aircraft under control. I worked with a pilot that went inadvertent in a reasonably well equipped helicopter (no auto pilot, of course). He reached down to switch frequencies and immediately lost control of the aircraft. I'm guessing he didn't have it stabilized. I'm told they think they went inverted more than once during the ordeal. He emerged from the clouds and miraculously was able to recover. The aircraft needed a lot of work to be flyable again. Edited October 21, 2013 by helonorth 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeroscout Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 When a helicopter pilot has no reference to the ground or the horizon, and then tries to change frequencies, especially transponder freqs, they can easily set themselves up for an almost irresistible urge that they have begun tumbling. The head movement, and time away from attitude instruments is a trap.There was a well documented case in New York that illustrates this somatic illusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilot#476398 Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 Has anyone ever survived IIMC in a helicopter that had no IFR instruments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retreating Brain Stall Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 After reading some of these posts- it comes to mind instrument training at night- some of the best I have ever done & hardest. If more flight schools would catch on to it and do it after or towards the end of a instrument rating while working towards a commercial rating. (I sure wish I would have done some during initial training). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikemv Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 I think something you state in your fact sheet needs to be corrected. It says that of the 52 IIMC accidents that occurred in 2011, 45 were fatal, "giving you a 14% survivability rate if you go IIMC!"I would say this is not true since not all IIMC encounters result in accidents. How many pilots went inadvertent in 2011? I'm guessing a whole lot more than 52. Helonorth, I agree with you about the way it reads! I did not provide that info as it was compiled by a work group, sent to the European team, back to us, then to the Exec Committee, then published and with punctuation errors that were not there when we began the process. The point should be that survivability is NOT a high percentage. Do you really think that 14% encourages pilots to disregard avoidance procedures and go IIMC? I do not believe that you do. I will bring this up at our next web conference and see if I can get it removed as I agree with you overall. Thanks for bringing this forward to my attention. Mike 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wally Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 (edited) IIMC on a night departure is a serious challenge, no matter what you're flying- http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2013/06/06/ornge_helicopter_crash_investigator_sketches_out_final_minute.html I would emphatically agree that trying to return to VFR by reversing course is dangerous. But, it's difficult to have a single rote response that covers all possibilities in all airframes. Are we talking complete loss of useful reference or just weather that's not VFR? You can lose all useful reference and have legal VFR weather... Flat light, for instance. Edited October 21, 2013 by Wally Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCM5 Posted October 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 We should keep in mind the terrain environment and altitude that this pilot was at when he hit the fog. This was an off-airport location, at night, with hills and trees surrounding the area. The pilot was no more than 50-100ft AGL when he went blind and impacted a tree (and still managed to continue flying). At that point, there was no way for him to know if he was turning 180 into another one, climbing into another one, descending into another one, etc. etc. There was no way to safely return to VFR conditions, because there weren't any. Some fancy optional electronic equipment and a couple hours of hood time (no instrument rating) made him confident enough to think he could make the ~45NM flight back to KBFI, even though every airport along the route was IFR at the time of departure, and has been for nearly two weeks straight. The only way to return to VFR in this case was to land. It's hard to even call it "inadvertent" IMC. This was negligent IMC. Every pilot has their own ethos and formulas for risk management, but I don't know any sane or competent pilot that would have taken off in these conditions. To go IIMC at altitude under more unpredictable circumstances is one thing, but again, that's not what happened here. ADM was the only factor at play. Maybe I'm the only one that gets angry over the situation because I know the pilot personally, but I have no sympathy or patience for this kind of behavior. Innocent lives are at risk, and in one way or another, everyone suffers from these [completely avoidable] incidents. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilot#476398 Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 This one looks like "I own my own helicopter" syndrom! Something most of us will never deal with? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeroscout Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 This one looks like "I own my own helicopter" syndrom! Something most of us will never deal with?Owner operators are almost always marginal pilots at best. There are exceptions, but not many that I have seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 For whatever reason, this pilot decided to launch, with a passenger on board… Never invest your ego into anything……….. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDHelicopterPilot Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 If the weather was as you stated then I agree with you 100% in that ADM and Risk Management played a huge roll here. I also agree that depending on the Attitude a pilot has then an instrument rating may give them an ego boost to do something they should not have even tried. I know something of this as a previous CFII of mine fell into this category. He took me into the clouds intentionaly with out my knowing he was going to do so. This was in an R22. Never flew with him again. Several years later he killed himself and a private pilot on a ferry flight in an R44. Stuck in the clouds, they attempted to circle and decend over the airport using the GPS to get out of Low IFR conditions. They crashed into a hillside. This was at night and it was obvious weather was IFR along their route. Come to the safety seminar in Las Vegas. We will be talking about Enroute Decision Points, part of preventing IIMC. I however, can not fix stupid and that is what my CFII was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helonorth Posted October 21, 2013 Report Share Posted October 21, 2013 Nobody has mentioned requesting an ASR approach when things go bad. If you can keep it level, you will get headings and altitudes to a runway. If you can get everything dialed in, it's not a bad tool in the toolbox. It would be a lot better to be talked down than try to do it on your own. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDHelicopterPilot Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 Correct. ASR is an option and something I talk about in my IIMC presentation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBuzzkill Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 Ground controlled approaches are awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 (edited) What was the purpose of the flight? What was the overwhelming need for this flight to take place? It appears; this pilot had no real reason to launch -period. Therefore, no matter the level of his experience or gadgets on the panel, he shouldn’t have spun-up. Rationalizing the methods of corrective measures or pre-prevention is pointless when you speak of an individual like this….. With that, simply based on the information printed in the article, there is one indicator why a pilot would fly with the conditions like they were, in the area he was, to the location he was going……. The ego is frail. The compensation for a frail ego is false courage…... Edited October 22, 2013 by Spike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d10 Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 I'm not too sure about that. An R-22 isn't nearly as stable as you think it is, let alone in an actual IIMC situation when the pilot is probably freaking out. The second problem is most R-22 pilots don't have significant IFR time. Even those with instrument ratings just simply do not have the IFR time. In fact, they won't have ANY actual IFR time, since the R-22 is not certificated for it. Just simulated IFR. So imagine your typical R-22 pilot who has literally zero IMC time. They could have been a great pilot during "instruments" but in an unstable standard R22 with pretty crappy instruments (and most don't have anything other than your standard gauges), I'd wager most pilots (as happens) would not survive. If a pilot is going to panic and lose control of the aircraft after encountering IIMC their odds of survival aren't good no matter what they choose to do. Most IIMC accidents are caused by this or continuing to hunt for VMC conditions though. Survivability is pretty good once a stable climb and transition to instruments is established. I'll take that option even if my only instrument is a standby mag compass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilot#476398 Posted October 22, 2013 Report Share Posted October 22, 2013 Let's not forget Spatial Disorientaion, something I'll bet is pretty easy to get in a 22 once you've lost all outside reference! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ridethisbike Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 Let's not forget Spatial Disorientaion, something I'll bet is pretty easy to get in a 22 once you've lost all outside reference! I'd be willing to bet it's easy to get it in ANY aircraft. Stability of an aircraft doesn't matter to your vestibular system if you lose visuals and move your head... But that's the whole point of switching to your instruments, anyways. Lost visuals, other senses can't be trusted, rely on instruments Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
palmfish Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 I have been in an autopilot equipped airplane on an IFR flight and entered the clouds from VMC. This has given me first hand knowledge of the power of the vestibular system. I have literally had to force myself to relax my grip on the controls and let the autopilot do the flying because I was convinced I was in a turning dive when the airplane was straight and level. And this is scanning the instruments. My eyes saw that I was level, the airplane was level, yet my body fought me every step of the way. You cannot imagine how hard it will be to fight this feeling when you have no autopilot - only 2 or 3 intruments giving visual feedback. And a helicopter is much less inherently stable than an airplane. I hope I never go IIMC in an aircraft without full autopilot. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richeh123 Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 the power of the vestibular system is very hard to overcome in IIMC. I keep a pair of ifr glasses with me at all times....this may sound crazy, but it has saved me! throw those on as soon as possible and trust your instruments, it works! good topic! lots of good advice!! AND WHAT IN THE HELL WAS THIS GUY THINKING!!!!???? (p.s....I never use my attitude indicator in a helicopter in IMC conditions.....in a plane....I use it all the time!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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