pilot#476398 Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 the power of the vestibular system is very hard to overcome in IIMC. I keep a pair of ifr glasses with me at all times....this may sound crazy, but it has saved me! throw those on as soon as possible and trust your instruments, it works! good topic! lots of good advice!! AND WHAT IN THE HELL WAS THIS GUY THINKING!!!!???? (p.s....I never use my attitude indicator in a helicopter in IMC conditions.....in a plane....I use it all the time!) How many times have you been in IIMC? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDHelicopterPilot Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 I use my attitude indicator all the time. In fact, off all the instruments I have displayed, it is the largest. That must mean something, If you guys want, I will upload my IIMC presentation. It includes everything spoken of here. On this thread and much more. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
palmfish Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 I use my attitude indicator all the time. In fact, off all the instruments I have displayed, it is the largest. That must mean something,If you guys want, I will upload my IIMC presentation. It includes everything spoken of here. On this thread and much more.I dont look at the attitude indicator as often as I could/should. I never have. My instrument scan is biased towards the RMI/HSI, Altimeter, and VSI. It's not textbook, I know, but it has always worked for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldy Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 Let's not forget Spatial Disorientaion, something I'll bet is pretty easy to get in a 22 once you've lost all outside reference!Got into it once in an R44, dark night, no moon, pushed down to 2-300 feet with fog over my head and 1/4 mile vis rapidly deteriorating into a wall in front of me, turning over the dark ocean at night. BAM! lost the horizon, and immediately felt the disorientation as I was banking in a turn. I knew I had started the turn away from the 101 highway and if I just maintained my bank the highway would come back into view. Some of the longest 5 seconds I've spent waiting and fighting my brain telling me to do 100 other things...and then just like that, the highway was out on my horizon and all was well again. The real question SHOULD be...what the hell was I doing in that fog, with that low vis, flying over the water, at night.....and then when I did decide I had to turn around, the only option I had was to turn out over the water. Bad ADM all around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikemv Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 Got into it once in an R44, dark night, no moon, pushed down to 2-300 feet with fog over my head and 1/4 mile vis rapidly deteriorating into a wall in front of me, turning over the dark ocean at night. BAM! lost the horizon, and immediately felt the disorientation as I was banking in a turn. I knew I had started the turn away from the 101 highway and if I just maintained my bank the highway would come back into view. Some of the longest 5 seconds I've spent waiting and fighting my brain telling me to do 100 other things...and then just like that, the highway was out on my horizon and all was well again. The real question SHOULD be...what the hell was I doing in that fog, with that low vis, flying over the water, at night.....and then when I did decide I had to turn around, the only option I had was to turn out over the water. Bad ADM all around. Goldy, "what the hell was I doing in that fog, with that low vis, flying over the water, at night.....and then when I did decide I had to turn around, the only option I had was to turn out over the water. Bad ADM all around." I understand that you realized this was not where you wanted to be and what you wanted to do in flight. You will "probably" never do this again? When you attend my FAASTeam presentation prior to Heli Success you will know why I stated "probably". I do not believe that you used BAD ADM all around. I would say that you did not make decisions!Tell me, did you really decide to go fly in the fog? Did you decide to fly in low vis? Did you decide to fly over water at night? I think you just got there from lack of SA at all levels and did not make a decision at all of those points when suddenly facing those elements. This is what JD was talking about when he mentioned EDP's. More of this at FAASTeam pres. at HS. I know that you did not say to yourself, "It is foggy and I am going to fly in this low vis condition tonight and will make turns over the water and lose the horizon/orientation for awhile". No one thinks it thru that way!!!!!!!!!! See you at HS. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeroscout Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 I dont look at the attitude indicator as often as I could/should. I never have. My instrument scan is biased towards the RMI/HSI, Altimeter, and VSI. It's not textbook, I know, but it has always worked for me.DG/RMI/HSI is the primary instrument for bank when straight and level. So what you do makes sense to me Got into it once in an R44, dark night, no moon, pushed down to 2-300 feet with fog over my head and 1/4 mile vis rapidly deteriorating into a wall in front of me, turning over the dark ocean at night. BAM! lost the horizon, and immediately felt the disorientation as I was banking in a turn. I knew I had started the turn away from the 101 highway and if I just maintained my bank the highway would come back into view. Some of the longest 5 seconds I've spent waiting and fighting my brain telling me to do 100 other things...and then just like that, the highway was out on my horizon and all was well again. The real question SHOULD be...what the hell was I doing in that fog, with that low vis, flying over the water, at night.....and then when I did decide I had to turn around, the only option I had was to turn out over the water. Bad ADM all around.You should be applauded for admitting that. I know that for myself I have consciously or even sub consciously executed decisions in flight that others had done before me and they didn't get away with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCM5 Posted October 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 Mike makes a good point.... I would agree and venture to guess that the majority of IIMC incidents are a result of no ADM as opposed to bad ADM. What is for certain is that the majority of IIMC crashes, especially in Robbies, are PVT owner/operators that likely never even check the weather and/or don't have much respect for or a good understanding of the potential hazards for operating in certain conditions. I'm sure some of that can be attributed to the 'ego' problem that Spike addressed. The "I got this" syndrome that is intended to prove their confidence and abilities to their blissfully ignorant passengers and ultimately gets them all killed instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 Bad ADM all around. Look at it this way, your ADM was successful because you are here to tell us about it. And, while we can plan for all contingences, the core of ADM is getting us out of Barney….. If applied properly, there is no such thing as bad ADM. ADM is a process. This process can yield bad results, but a bad result is the first indicator that the process now requires change. Conversely, if ADM is not properly applied, then it’s not really ADM………. The DECIDE model of ADM: Detect, Estimate, Choose, Identify, Do, Evaluate. This process is a continuing looping process. Again, if a bad result is encountered, simply start all over again. Dwelling on the bad result puts the pilot behind the 8 ball. When this happens, the situation can rapidly become dynamically unstable and will get worse with time (read moments). DECIDE and act… Which you did, successfully…. Poor planning and lack of decision making are the first few links of the accident chain. Identifying those links is the key to accident prevention.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richeh123 Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 How many times have you been in IIMC? just once...didn't mean to make it sound like it has been a lot of times...sorry! it was at night, weather was suppose to be nice, weather just changed instantly! happened to have the glasses in the heli. complete disorientated after the first 5 seconds. I guess you really want to try and trust your eyes and senses.....just doesn't work that way! I put on the glasses and I could trust the instruments and my stress level went way down...I don't know if I would be here if I hadent had those cheap plastic glasses...best money I ever spent! they now go where I go! it just works for me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richeh123 Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 I dont look at the attitude indicator as often as I could/should. I never have. My instrument scan is biased towards the RMI/HSI, Altimeter, and VSI. It's not textbook, I know, but it has always worked for me.I agree! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDHelicopterPilot Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 Great topic. There are several methods to instrument scan for IFR. I suspect over time with experience this changes and evolves into what the pilot finds works best for them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDHelicopterPilot Posted October 26, 2013 Report Share Posted October 26, 2013 (edited) Back to the IIMC topic. I would like to share with you an IIMC checklist. Feel free to use it, change it to fit your needs. I fully understand the need to prevent IIMC from happening in the first place. However, you will want to solid plan in place should it happen. It is better to have a tool and not need it vs. needing a tool and not having it. There are many tools. The En-route Decision Point that I speak of is one designed to prevent IIMC, but also allows you to accept and commit to IIMC. You will learn a lot about it at the FAASTeam Seminar. This checklist is meant to aid the pilot and give them a tool to help them through IIMC. Remember it is a checklist not a to do list. Therefore, there are memory items that you will need to complete from.....memory. You will see the first part of the checklist is to regain or maintain control of the aircraft. You will also note, turning back to VFR is not in the checklist. This does not preclude one from doing so. It should only be done if it is known to be VMC behind you and there are no obstructions. The primary goal in the begining is to re-establish control or to maintain it. Then we can work on getting out of it. Trying to do both at the same time will lead to further problems in aircraft control. There is a reason Aviate is first and Navigate is second. It is also recommended that pilots carry Instrument Approach plates with them. These are printable online for FREE! Print some out for the area you fly in. CFIs and CFIIs should train their students on IIMC avoidance and recovery. As part of my training we do this all the time. Most often in the simulator where it can simulated just as real life. It can also be done in the aircraft as well. I am often forced into an "IIMC" situation by my instructor following a take off from an off airport location. I am therefore, low, slow and in the worst position to be entering IIMC. Aviate: Attitude: Level Heading: Maintain (turn to avoid known obstacles) Power: Climb power Airspeed: adjust to Vy Terrain awareness: use aircraft equipment if onboard. Climb to pre-determined altitude based on your flight planing Navigate:GPS/VOR: Find current positionDirect to: nearest suitible airport Communicate:- declare emergency"N#......declaring emergency/ VFR R22u/ IIMC/ Position/ Altitude/ Request/ Fuel state/ soulsTransponder: 7700 or as assigned Edited October 26, 2013 by JDHelicopterPilot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wally Posted October 26, 2013 Report Share Posted October 26, 2013 Remember:METARs are history.The best of forecasts are from the past, too.The weather is what you see right now.Down is bad, unless you're landing.If you're asking yourself if you should go, you know the answer is NO!That also applies when you're asking if you should continue- When in doubt, chicken out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilot#476398 Posted October 26, 2013 Report Share Posted October 26, 2013 ...and TAFs are too often wrong! One cool thing (if you happen to fly around a city), is that many news stations have roof top cameras, some of which may be viewable from their website. A great way to see if the fog is rolling in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldy Posted October 26, 2013 Report Share Posted October 26, 2013 Goldy, "what the hell was I doing in that fog, with that low vis, flying over the water, at night.....and then when I did decide I had to turn around, the only option I had was to turn out over the water. Bad ADM all around." I understand that you realized this was not where you wanted to be and what you wanted to do in flight. You will "probably" never do this again? When you attend my FAASTeam presentation prior to Heli Success you will know why I stated "probably". I do not believe that you used BAD ADM all around. I would say that you did not make decisions!Tell me, did you really decide to go fly in the fog? Did you decide to fly in low vis? Did you decide to fly over water at night? I think you just got there from lack of SA at all levels and did not make a decision at all of those points when suddenly facing those elements. This is what JD was talking about when he mentioned EDP's. More of this at FAASTeam pres. at HS. I know that you did not say to yourself, "It is foggy and I am going to fly in this low vis condition tonight and will make turns over the water and lose the horizon/orientation for awhile". No one thinks it thru that way!!!!!!!!!! See you at HS. MikeBingo! I guess saying this was back when I was younger and stupider doesn't help much..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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