That first turbine job -training

[he_monkey]

On average, how many hours do employers give to new employees to get the hang of a helicopter in the 1000 hour jobs (Temsco,Papillion, RLC)?

 

5....10...15? After how many hours will they say "No, you aren't picking it up fast enough, get lost.)

 

I love to fly and I'm a safe pilot and have never had an accident, but I'm concerned that I'm a slower learner (we can't all be an ace pilot) and I may need more than 5 or 10 hours before I can be cut loose in a brand new heli (and first time in a turbine) that I have no experience in.

 

Especially the transition from the light and touchy R22 to a EC130 like in the canyon.

 

thanks

[Whistlerpilot]

My first turbine job was right out of flight school flying a Jet Ranger way way north in the Northwest Territories. The company had 5 hours flight time budgeted for training. If you weren't getting it by the 5 hours they wouldn't PPC you which meant you had an exclusively ground crew job. The training included full down auto's and stuck pedals (left and right) to the ground. It was expected that you knew every part of the machine before showing up. The training took a week including ground instruction, but it felt more like a very long exam. There were 13 online exams which had to be completed at home, they budgeted 40 hours but I took more like 80.

 

Flying the helicopter is the easiest part. My advice is study everything about the aircraft well before starting training. Get the flight manual, talk to other pilots, and find where you can go and get hands on with the machine. I swept many a hanger floor and cleaned the toilets at several different companies just so I could hang out and ask questions and actually touch the machines. Hard to learn a DI without the helicopter in front of you. It would be pretty intimidating to learn everything about all the systems and emergency procedures for a turbine helicopter without studying ahead in my opinion.

 

If you are a slow learner give yourself a head-start. Then at the company training you are just focusing on the flying. I'm not a slow learner but I choke under exam pressure so I've had to go in extra prepared.

 

My start was the Canadian norm so might not apply directly to your question, but the principle of studying ahead would still hold for your situation.

[heligirl03]

5-10 flight hours is average. Week of ground school prior. Once you get past 10hrs you come under heavier scrutiny and risk the company deciding to cut its losses. Instructor pilots train a lot of new pilots and can usually get a feel for your pace/ability pretty quickly. They should also be able to give you a pretty good idea of the typical hurdles with your particular transition. In my experience as a turbine transition instructor, people who struggle are more often overwhelmed with the "drinking from a fire hose" experience of learning a new aircraft (ground AND flight), extensive CBT, new operational scope (135), financial pressure, family pressure (moving, spouse stress), etc...they psych themselves out. Studying the aircraft ahead of time is crucial to the head game. I saw very few people simply lack the ability to mechanically fly, it was almost always a lack of psychological control under pressure that degraded their flight skills...not a good thing for a pilot. I always recommended that new pilots study well before arriving to class (they'll send you materials), most operators have you complete (~25hrs) CBT prior to class as well, wait to move your family until after a successful checkride, and especially warn spouses/partners that you will need 100% focus with limited family expectations for 2-3wks. This applies mostly to a first turbine transition. After that one it's still a lot of work to start a new job but it's not quite so much of a head game....you know what you're in for and you've already made the break. I always told new hires, look around you, if we all did this you can too! Don't psych yourself out.

[he_monkey]

Recently I got passed over for a position with a company that I thought had hired me on. They didn't provide me with any training material or ground instruction (I assure you this was an "Entry-level" turbine job) I showed up and over the course of a few days logged about 4.5 hours flight time in an EC120 (coming from an exclusively Robby experience).

 

I initially had trouble with the pedals, both being backwards and the full amount of pedal necessary as opposed to the small inputs required in an R22/R44. After every flight I asked the instructor if there was anything I could improve or let him know that I recognized my problems with intentions to fix them. They would always respond with "Naw, it's ok it'll take a little while" and "give yourself time, it's tough".

 

After 4.5 flight hours the boss calls me into his office. I went in assuming it was for paperwork and my file and instead he told me that I wasn't good enough. I'm feeling incredibly heartbroken right now, and feel like a horrible pilot for not getting the feel of the aircraft fast enough. I didn't even realize that the flights were deciding my place in the company, I had already signed a contract, and I was under the impression that these were my training flights to get ready for the job, not that they were all interview flights.

 

I blame nobody but myself and I don't want to badmouth this company, I was expecting a bit more time to make the transition and was simply wondering if I got an entirely fair shot at the position.

 

Trying to stay positive that 5 hours in an EC120 will make the next interview a bit easier, but it's certainly hard when I sit here wondering if I am even any good.

 

-Feeling Very Depressed

[aeroscout]

I don't know how much balm it will be but...not every job you see that you want will you even get an interview for. Not every interview will lead to a job. Not every job you have offered will be as long term as you may want it. It might take some sifting to find a job that's a good fit for you with the company and vice versa.

[pilot#476398]

Not long ago I got passed over for an entry level job because my flight check didn't go so well,...and that was in an R44, a helicopter I could fly with my eyes closed! Sure I felt like a lousey pilot afterwards, but that will pass!

 

Sometimes you're just not what they're looking for?,...or the other guy is 10lbs lighter!

[helonorth]

I don't know of very many people that got through the interview flight but didn't get through training. You will probably fly 10-15 hours and as long as you are progressing, have a good attitude and people like you, the IP's will get you through it. Nothing complicated about a 206, 407, 500 or an Astar. It's just another helicopter...

[helipilotm]

Heligirl hit the nail on the head. When I was a turbine instructor it flat out blew me away at how pilots psyche themselves out to the point of them not being able to fly. I found myself constantly saying quit thinking about it look outside and fly. The students would constantly be staring at the gauges for some reason. 5-10 hours is a good amount of time, if you can't get the basics down by then there's a major problem. Knowing the systems and the helicopter is harder than knowing how to fly. There not expecting perfection just a teachable humble attitude.

[Wally]

Turbines aren't harder, they seem strange compared to recips. Get your head around the different concepts and terms, and turbines are easier.

 

Far as I know, Part 135 operators have to give you 'X' classroom and flight time whether you're Chuck Yeager or John Doe. My impression (I've only had 2 jobs in 30 years) is that training is a cost that employers don't want to lose, irregardless of 'high standards'. It's better to invest in training a slow learner with a good work philosophy than it is to start over with an unknown. The Chief Pilot might have decades of experience selecting new pilots, but until the training department has flown with you, you're a 'pig in a poke'.

 

I have seen new guys hacked in training, but it is hardly ever clear that it was a lack of capability versus attitude. I bet I could count on one hand the pilots I've seen in 45 years who couldn't be taught...

Learn to do it the employer's way and demonstrate a sincere willingness to learn, and you'll be alright.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Wally

[Spike]

On average, how many hours do employers give to new employees to get the hang of a helicopter in the 1000 hour jobs (Temsco,Papillion, RLC)?

 

5....10...15? After how many hours will they say "No, you aren't picking it up fast enough, get lost.)

 

I love to fly and I'm a safe pilot and have never had an accident, but I'm concerned that I'm a slower learner (we can't all be an ace pilot) and I may need more than 5 or 10 hours before I can be cut loose in a brand new heli (and first time in a turbine) that I have no experience in.

 

Especially the transition from the light and touchy R22 to a EC130 like in the canyon.

 

thanks

 

However many the number of hours a [potential] employer may provide for transition, you need to appear you can immediately fly the machine with confidence….

 

While times have changed, there was a time when a few employers didn’t provide any training whatsoever. Specifically, the motto was,” if you can get in and start it, you’ve got the job"…..

 

With the above in mind, when transitioning, gain as much knowledge as you can about the new machine prior to the interview. When it comes to the training, you should (again) appear you have experience in the new model. So-much-so, the employer should decide to minimize the time for your training simply because you “get it”…….

 

In short, don’t rest on the fact employers provide 5, 10 or 15 hours transition training. Go into it believing you’re good to go at hour one……..

 

Edited October 22, 2013 by Spike

[Flying Pig]

Generally its not the helicopter that's harder to fly at all.... Its that when you get into turbines its the type of flying your are doing with the helicopter.

[helipilotm]

Generally its not the helicopter that's harder to fly at all.... Its that when you get into turbines its the type of flying your are doing with the helicopter.

I can see your point but not for 99% of first time turbine jobs. The type of flying for that is mind numbing circles, over the gulf etc. yeah it's mgw allot of the time but there still helicopters.

[Flying Pig]

.......full of passengers.

[Goldy]

R22 to an EC120 is a bit of a stretch, depending on how many hours you have. Only thing you can really do now is promise yourself to study harder and do better next time. I would pay attention to HeliGirl's comments since she has lived 135 ops and new pilots for the last 5 years or so..

[helipilotm]

R22 to an EC120 is a bit of a stretch, depending on how many hours you have. Only thing you can really do now is promise yourself to study harder and do better next time. I would pay attention to HeliGirl's comments since she has lived 135 ops and new pilots for the last 5 years or so..

Why would you say it's a bit of a stretch Goldy? I trained numerous guys 8-10 that had 0 turbine. Went from R-22/R-44/ S300 straight into an EC-130. Like I said earlier the pilots would psyche themselves out, which is understandable. Once they figured out it was a helicopter they were fine. Kinda cool to watch it unfold actually

[Goldy]

Why would you say it's a bit of a stretch Goldy? I trained numerous guys 8-10 that had 0 turbine. Went from R-22/R-44/ S300 straight into an EC-130. Like I said earlier the pilots would psyche themselves out, which is understandable. Once they figured out it was a helicopter they were fine. Kinda cool to watch it unfold actually

Because us dumb ass pilots psych ourselves out!.....I really don't think the turbine part is really a big part of it, just a bigger aircraft. The part I hate is not instinctively knowing where all the gauges are....let's see....where did that RPM gauge go again? Your brain is wired to look at where you expect it to be...what your used to. Like anything, a patient instructor can make a world of difference...maybe you're just that good?

[helipilotm]

Like anything, a patient instructor can make a world of difference...maybe you're just that good?

I never said it didn't happen to me.

I'm just saying what I saw. Along the same lines as Heligirl. In my situation it wasn't the moving part (life stresses) as we had a schedule that was conducive to not living there. You are exactly right though it wasn't the "turbine" it was the huge factor like I said its understandable. And in the EC 130 I never once heard a complaint about the panel or gauge setup. Everything is right there,

206 on the other hand pilots had a harder time adjusting to the panel setup in my experiences anyway. I would say 65-75% of the pilots I've trained would get over the "new helicopter" within the first few hours. The other 25% would be about the 5 hour mark. There was only one guy that got booted and if I remember correctly it was his "know it all" attitude. I only flew his first few hours then was off hitch. They warned him once flew a few more hours and he was down the road.

 

To the OP don't worry about it to much. It happens. Sounds like they didnt give you much of a chance kinda set you up to fail. Worst thing to do in my opinion is throw domebody into an unfamilar aircraft to fly without some ground. Go into the next training with a positive can do humble attitude and most importantly have fun and enjoy it!

Edited October 23, 2013 by helipilotm