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I've been in the sand box a while and need some FAR interpretation help. I'm trying to find guidance on a ATP holding a CFI not CFII, teaching instruments in a FTD for a student seeking instrument time for a rating (ATP). The instructor is a former military pilot that use to be an IE (instrument examiner- esseintially the military equivalent of a civilian CFII).

Any previous forums or FAA legal interpretation any one can think of?

And would he sign the student's log book as CFI or ATP if he were able to teach instruments in the FTD. (Training will be taking place under part 61 not 135).

Edited by HeliFun
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§61.51 Pilot logbooks. g. Logging Instrument time

4. A person can use time in a flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device for acquiring instrument aeronautical experience for a pilot certificate, rating, or instrument recency experience, provided an ​authorized instructor is present to observe that time and signs the person's logbook or training record to verify the time and the content of the training session.

 

Authorized instructor means—

(i) A person who holds a ground instructor certificate issued under part 61 of this chapter and is in compliance with §61.217, when conducting ground training in accordance with the privileges and limitations of his or her ground instructor certificate;

(ii) A person who holds a flight instructor certificate issued under part 61 of this chapter and is in compliance with §61.197, when conducting ground training or flight training in accordance with the privileges and limitations of his or her flight instructor certificate; or

(iii) A person authorized by the Administrator to provide ground training or flight training under part 61, 121, 135, or 142 of this chapter when conducting ground training or flight training in accordance with that authority.

§61.167 Airline transport pilot privileges and limitations.

(a) Privileges. (1) A person who holds an airline transport pilot certificate is entitled to the same privileges as a person who holds a commercial pilot certificate with an instrument rating.

(2) A person who holds an airline transport pilot certificate and has met the aeronautical experience requirements of §61.159 and the age requirements of §61.153(a)(1) of this part may instruct—

(i) Other pilots in air transportation service in aircraft of the category, class, and type, as applicable, for which the airline transport pilot is rated and endorse the logbook or other training record of the person to whom training has been given;

(ii) In flight simulators, and flight training devices representing the aircraft referenced in paragraph ( B)(1) of this section, when instructing under the provisions of this section and endorse the logbook or other training record of the person to whom training has been given;

(iii) Only as provided in this section, except that an airline transport pilot who also holds a flight instructor certificate can exercise the instructor privileges under subpart H of this part for which he or she is rated; and

(iv) In an aircraft, only if the aircraft has functioning dual controls, when instructing under the provisions of this section.

§61.193 Flight instructor privileges.

A person who holds a flight instructor certificate is authorized within the limitations of that person's flight instructor certificate and ratings to train and issue endorsements that are required for:

(a) A student pilot certificate;

( B) A pilot certificate;

© A flight instructor certificate;

(d) A ground instructor certificate;

(e) An aircraft rating;

(f) An instrument rating;

(g) A flight review, operating privilege, or recency of experience requirement of this part;

(h) A practical test; and

(i) A knowledge test.

Edited by HeliFun
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My thoughts-

A student seeking an ATP rating could be trained in a FTD for simulated instrument conditions by a CFI not a CFII?

The instructor could sign the logbook as CFI rather than ATP since the training is under part 61 and not for a 121 or 135 company pilot receiving training from the ATP instructor.

 

As I understand the newer rules for a instrument rating this would be partially true above due to the newer 15 hour requirement (see below).

 

(Forty hours of actual or simulated instrument time in the areas of operation listed under paragraph © of this section, of which 15 hours must have been with an authorized instructor who holds an instrument-helicopter rating, and the instrument time includes:)

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Did you just read the same thing that you posted? I read the entire thing and I still didn't get that an ATP can sign off an instrument student nor did I get that a CFI can sign off a student in a simulator. Bottom line, if you are not a CFII you cannot give instrument instruction. You can give them instruction if you think you are that good but you can't sign their logbook for the training time.

If you disagree please tell me where in the FAR's it says you can.

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61.193 is pretty dang clear.

 

A person who holds a flight instructor certificate is authorized within the limitations of that person's flight instructor certificate and ratings to train and issue endorsements that are required for:

 

So within the limititations means just that...otherwise we wouldnt have CFI vs CFII

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Unfortunelty we can interpret different things from reading the same things, got love the FARs and what they don't come out and clearly state.
If the FARS would define privileges a little better on CFI vs CFII, it would help. I've always understood the CFII is key in endorsements/sign offs and now the "15 hours for instrument rating". As far as instrument training for an ATP rating I see no issue. I was trained on occasions back in the day by only CFI with an instrument rating during the commercial and beginning of my instrument rating until the CFII was available. 61.193 allows the instructor to train for a rating, the student is not looking for an endorsement yet or for the 3 hours prior to check ride.
The ATP instructing as I understand is only when training under an air carrier certificate like part 135.

Edited by HeliFun
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Unfortunelty we can interpret different things from reading the same things, got love the FARs and what they don't come out and clearly state.

If the FARS would define previleges a little better on CFI vs CFII, it would help. I've always understood the CFII is key in endorsements/sign offs and now the "15 hours for instrument rating". As far as instrument training for an ATP rating I see no issue. I was trained on occasions back in the day by only CFI with an instrument rating during the commercial and beginning of my instrument rating until the CFII was available. 61.193 allows the instructor to train for a rating, the student is not looking for an endorsement yet or for the 3 hours prior to check ride.

The ATP instructing as I understand is only when training under an air carrier certificate like part 135.

 

I guess you didn't quite understand what I posted. Anyone can give training. As a Private Pilot you can train someone to fly a helicopter if that person is willing to learn from you. I have a friend who has been training in a twin engine airplane from a guy who isn't an instructor. Does it make it legal? No. When it comes time for him to get an endorsement who is going to give it too him? It's pretty simple really, if you are a CFI you can train a person to fly VFR. If you are a CFII you can train VFR and IFR. That's why you get the CFII rating. ATP means you can fly more than I believe 14 people in your aircraft. Airline Transport Pilot.

But you can interpret it any way you like. I knew a CFI that use to log flight time sitting in a helicopter during maintenance runups. He interpreted it as when the blades are turning. I explained that you have to have the intent to fly to count the time but he didn't feel that way. So it sounds like you have already made the interpretation the way you want. My only question would be why did you ask if you already had your mind made up?

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I guess you didn't quite understand what I posted. Anyone can give training. As a Private Pilot you can train someone to fly a helicopter if that person is willing to learn from you. I have a friend who has been training in a twin engine airplane from a guy who isn't an instructor. Does it make it legal? No. When it comes time for him to get an endorsement who is going to give it too him? It's pretty simple really, if you are a CFI you can train a person to fly VFR. If you are a CFII you can train VFR and IFR. That's why you get the CFII rating. ATP means you can fly more than I believe 14 people in your aircraft. Airline Transport Pilot.

But you can interpret it any way you like. I knew a CFI that use to log flight time sitting in a helicopter during maintenance runups. He interpreted it as when the blades are turning. I explained that you have to have the intent to fly to count the time but he didn't feel that way. So it sounds like you have already made the interpretation the way you want. My only question would be why did you ask if you already had your mind made up?

 

Trying not to make my mind up;) and keep an open mind and get some constructive feedback. (Which I appreciate yours) these forums are a challenge to express ourselves without sometimes offending, not my intent to offend.

 

As a CFII my self and trying to better understand my ratings and others and how they can exercise them within the limits, I always understood the need for a CFII for endorsement and now lately since it's been a while for me being stateside, the 15 hours with a CFII on the instrument rating from what I'm seeing.

 

If a an ATP/CFI were to do instrument training in a FTD to an ATP candidate would this be legal in the ATP candidate to log the time in the FTD as instrument time and possibly dual? The authorized instructor "CFI" would be signing the student's logbook verifying the time and content of the training session. CFI not CFII who could be an authorized instructor in the given scenario? (Candidate obtaining hours is commercial/instrument).

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If this guy used to be a military instrument examinar, can't he just convert that over to CFII?

Cant convince the retired to get back in an aircraft- he makes a living ground instructing now. (His words: "been there, done that, won the t-shirt, now its your turn!")

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If this guy used to be a military instrument examinar, can't he just convert that over to CFII?

 

You don't even have to have been a military instrument examiner in order to convert to a CFII. A fresh instructor right out of IPC/MOI is automatically a CFII (assuming they do the paperwork).

 

In order to reconcile this you have to think about what a military IP actually does. Both in flight school and out at units it is the regular IP that often conducts instrument training. I am an IP (not an IE) and I fly students in the clouds all the time. In fact, I conduct checkrides as well (the job of a civilian DPE). And yes, my students can go get their civilian instrument ticket based upon successfully completing the checkride I administer to them.

 

Once my students graduate and go out to their units a regular IP can continue their refresher training in instruments as well as VMC maneuvers. It will likely be an IE though that administers the instrument portion of their APART.

 

There really just isn't a 1 for 1 equivalent between IP and CFI, IE and CFII, or even IP/IE and DPE.

 

In short, if this guy is already a military IP (IE or not) it just takes a bit of paperwork to get his CFII. I'm not sure why he wouldn't.

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Well acording to the FAR 61.167here is an exerpt from it.

 

(iii) Only as provided in this section, except that an airline transport pilot who also holds a flight instructor certificate can exercise the instructor privileges under subpart H of this part for which he or she is rated; and.....

 

So again, its an ATP rating...which superceeds the commercial instrument rating. Then the CFI allowance is added for which the ATP is rated.

 

So I dont interpret it, I read it. Clearly stated for which they are rated. If the ATP holds a CFI only, they can not endorse for instrument. Even though they are rated as an instrument pilot. This is the samea s my commercial with an instrument endorsement. I currently hold a CFI, but cannot train, or endorse for instrument until i hold the CFII. ATP ratings are the same privilage as commercial with instrument save for the passenger count allowances as PIC of type rated aircraft.

 

Your ATP needs to hold a current CFII to legally endorse or train instrument.. Ground or flight.

 

Now I have a question right back at ya.....

 

When I was training for instrument, and CFII(stopped due to job offer), my instructor held a CFII but was not current instrument due to more than 6 months since he himself flew under the hood approaches etc.....

 

Why does the FAA allow us to train others for their instrument rating and not require us to keep current while doing so?

I am aware he training CFI/I is a VFR safety pilot while the student is under the hood. We also never fly IMC in our trainer IFR ship as its not rated to do so. Just currious as to the apparent loop hole....

 

Anyone see this differently?

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Well acording to the FAR 61.167here is an exerpt from it.

 

(iii) Only as provided in this section, except that an airline transport pilot who also holds a flight instructor certificate can exercise the instructor privileges under subpart H of this part for which he or she is rated; and.....

 

So again, its an ATP rating...which superceeds the commercial instrument rating. Then the CFI allowance is added for which the ATP is rated.

 

So I dont interpret it, I read it. Clearly stated for which they are rated. If the ATP holds a CFI only, they can not endorse for instrument. Even though they are rated as an instrument pilot. This is the samea s my commercial with an instrument endorsement. I currently hold a CFI, but cannot train, or endorse for instrument until i hold the CFII. ATP ratings are the same privilage as commercial with instrument save for the passenger count allowances as PIC of type rated aircraft.

 

Your ATP needs to hold a current CFII to legally endorse or train instrument.. Ground or flight.

 

Now I have a question right back at ya.....

 

When I was training for instrument, and CFII(stopped due to job offer), my instructor held a CFII but was not current instrument due to more than 6 months since he himself flew under the hood approaches etc.....

 

Why does the FAA allow us to train others for their instrument rating and not require us to keep current while doing so?

I am aware he training CFI/I is a VFR safety pilot while the student is under the hood. We also never fly IMC in our trainer IFR ship as its not rated to do so. Just currious as to the apparent loop hole....

 

Anyone see this differently?

Stupid huh! I haven't been instrument current for years but have exercised instrument instructing privileges over the years but in the function of "safety pilot/instructor". Just not practicable in small light aircraft that are not instrument certified. Now to go out and train a student in actual the instructor himself must be truly current.

 

So if the ATP/CFI can't teach instruments in a FTD can the student preparing for ATP rating log instrument time but not dual and have the instructor sign and validate the learning/training session that took place? The ATP rating essentially requires 75 instrument time and unto 25 can be in a FTD provided the part 142 simulator exception. The 25 hours in a FTD doesn't necessary have to be dual, just instrument time, just like you were doing a proficiency flight and someone verify you did it in the FTD, right? (Logging instrument time 61.51 paragraph 4) (what is an authorized instructor in this scenario CFI or CFII)?

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Well a rated pilot does not require a CFI to endorse his/her IFR time, any more than if i took a private pilot to be my safety pilot while i flew holds, approaches etc.

 

But the dual instruction....now that i can see being an endorsement nightmare if not done legally.

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Alright, finally seeing some light on this one

 

The changes that have took place in 2009 make old days of CFIs teaching instruments without CFII LONG GONE.

 

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2010/grayson-2%20-%20(2010)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf

 

61.195 Flight instructor limitations and qualifications:

c. Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument training for the issuance of an instrument rating, a type rating not limited to VFR, or the instrument training required for commercial pilot and airline transport pilot certificates must hold an instrument rating on his or her pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft used for the training provided.

 

Sums that one up very clearly now. Also which explains our airplane friends can do the basic instrument attitude flying training with students and not need a CFII for the airplane private pilot students.

Thank you all for the constructive and professional criticism.

Edited by HeliFun
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I looked at that reg and glossed right over that... oops

Thats why I like brining it up to the forum, we can collaborate and criticize and get ourselves on track. It took me a whole day to finally wrap my head around it until today after reading all the other posts and reading, re-reading, and re-reading different regs.

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Trying not to make my mind up;) and keep an open mind and get some constructive feedback. (Which I appreciate yours) these forums are a challenge to express ourselves without sometimes offending, not my intent to offend.

 

As a CFII my self and trying to better understand my ratings and others and how they can exercise them within the limits, I always understood the need for a CFII for endorsement and now lately since it's been a while for me being stateside, the 15 hours with a CFII on the instrument rating from what I'm seeing.

 

If a an ATP/CFI were to do instrument training in a FTD to an ATP candidate would this be legal in the ATP candidate to log the time in the FTD as instrument time and possibly dual? The authorized instructor "CFI" would be signing the student's logbook verifying the time and content of the training session. CFI not CFII who could be an authorized instructor in the given scenario? (Candidate obtaining hours is commercial/instrument).

Don't sweat the small stuff. It takes a lot to offend me. I guess if you call me dirty names I might get offended.

I guess you just need to keep in mind that an ATP is not an instructor. Some people look at the ATP as being the holy grail since it is the last certificate to acquire since you have to wait until you have 1200 hours. However, you do not have to be an instructor to get it. You can be a Commercial pilot with an instrument rating. You do not have to have an instructor sign off to get your ATP. You can take all of your training on your own and then apply for the certificate. You may have problems finding someone to rent you a helicopter for the checkride but you really don't need a CFI/CFII to get the rating.

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So now my question is how does a commercial instrument pilot desiring to obtain instrument experience in a FTD for an ATP rating do so without any CFIIs available. The FTD is available for free but no CFIIs on staff.

Only needs an "authorized instructor" present to observe the time and signs the person's logbook or training record to verify the time and the content of the training session. (61.51 g 4)

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So now my question is how does a commercial instrument pilot desiring to obtain instrument experience in a FTD for an ATP rating do so without any CFIIs available. The FTD is available for free but no CFIIs on staff.

Only needs an "authorized instructor" present to observe the time and signs the person's logbook or training record to verify the time and the content of the training session. (61.51 g 4)

 

craigslist?

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Do you need an instrument rating to get an ATP, or just 75 hours of instrument time?

instrument rating plus 75 hours instrument experience. 50 obtained in flight and 25 can be credited for simulator/FTD (more ins and outs to it but thats the general idea)

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Curve Ball from the national proposed rule making Final Rule:

 

73. This revision of Sec. 61.195© establishes the flight instructor
qualifications for providing instrument training in-flight at the
commercial pilot and ATP certification levels

 

 

This final rule amends Sec. 61.51(g)(4) to allow logging of

instrument time in a flight simulator (FS), flight training device
(FTD), or aviation training device (ATD) conforming to existing
regulation or policy. An authorized instructor (See Sec. 61.1( B)(2))
must be present in the FS, FTD, or ATD when instrument training time is
logged for training and aeronautical experience for meeting the
requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review (See Sec.
61.51(a)). The instructor must sign the person's logbook verifying
training time and session content.

 

61.195

© Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument training for the issuance of an instrument rating, a type rating not limited to VFR, or the instrument training required for commercial pilot and airline transport pilot certificates must hold an instrument rating on his or her pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft used for the training provided.

 

Simulator/FTD is not Flight Training, its not in an aircraft, then it must be a form of ground training. That authorized instructor could then possibly be a CFI exercising ground instructing privileges.

 

The intent:

The FAA disagrees that a non-instrument rated flight instructor

should be able to teach the instrument training required for commercial
pilot certification. The FAA expects the instrument training required
for commercial pilot certification to be more advanced and requires
that the flight instructor who teaches instrument training at the
commercial pilot certification level hold an instrument rating on their
flight instructor certificate.

But thats not how the regulation is written- its written for flight.
This final rule

revises Sec. 61.195© to establish that a flight instructor who
provides instrument training required at the commercial pilot and
airline transport pilot certification levels must hold an instrument
rating on both his/her pilot and flight instructor certificates that
are appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which
instrument training is being provided.

 

Reference:

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFinalRule.nsf/861ae0b1f7efc3ee85256453007b0e8a/72dfc1b3808d2cb486257656006e4d11!OpenDocument

 

maybe we can get iChris to chime in on this one.

Edited by HeliFun
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I just took a look at the FAR again since this is the next rating that I am looking at. You don't have to have a CFII or any CFI for that matter to sign you off. You just have to meet the requirements of the regulation. As an instrument pilot you can fly the simulator and log the time. When you get the amount of time needed you simply apply for the certificate take the written and flight test. That's it. There is no requirement that you take any instruction for an ATP.

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