Engine Failures

[adam32]

The Experimental thread got me thinking. We always hear about engine failures in aircraft, sometimes catastrophic, sometimes something of an easy fix...most of the time the aircraft falls from the sky.

 

And I think most of us have many many more hours driving a car down the road, and yet I've never had an engine just up and quit on me. And we all know we take care of our vehicles much much better then aircraft...I mean that 3000 (usually turns into 5000+) mile oil change is about all the maintenance our engines get...lol

 

So if aircraft engines are so much more advanced over automotive engines then why do they seem to fail a lot more?

Edited December 12, 2013 by adam32

[adam32]

And BTW, I don't have a Honda Accord! Proud owner of a couple Dodge diesels and a Ford Expedition

[WolftalonID]

Well.....maybe they aren't so advanced. Automotive companies take chances with new technology every year. If something goes awry they recall.

 

Aviation has become so government controlled even experiments on equipment are controlled. Their isnt a whole lot of innovation because of restricted regulation. What innovation has happened has been more electronic advancement to make flying safer....only we have time and time again found the pilot error was due to the pilot forgot how to fly.

 

Aircraft operate on rather archaic engine base technology.

 

Just noticed the poll.

Had several engines come apart on me.

Mitsubishi eclipse blew a water line, then later that week blew a head gasket.

I owned a landrover...enough said there

Had a car, my wife said sounded like pop corn, a week after it started that noise. Had no oil.......

Edited December 12, 2013 by WolftalonID

[SBuzzkill]

A DSM and a Land Rover. No wonder you've had back luck!

 

I had an Acura that burned oil like crazy but it never quit on me. The closest to a failure I've had while driving was my old Astro van which had over 200,000 miles on it when it started leaking coolant. Other than engines I blew the transmission on my Acura right in front of my driveway.

Edited December 12, 2013 by SBuzzkill

[Dreamin of a Commuter 2B]

best car I have had was Subaru's, Now that Said I have always liked Gyroplanes and when I first started flying,I was like wow Subaru powered Gyro, could fly any where in that.

 

But here is the catch. To get good power you have to turn about 4,500 r.p.m.'s that is about the same as driving your car continuosly at 100 + m.p.h. , in turn this kills the realiablity of the engine.

 

I have 14 hours in an RAF-2000 Gyro that has a 2.5 Litre 165 h.p. Subaru engine on it. Same engine that is in my Forester. The whole time I was training my instructior had me fly patterns to keep us over open fields. He had already had 4 major engine out landings in the past.

 

Most certified Piston Engine Aircraft engines are still a 50+ year old design, they run a gear driven magnito and a lot still run and old designed up draft carb. with a float in it. basicly the same design as a lawn mower carb. so it is really hard to compare a honda or other Car engine to the aircraft engine. also the Aircraft piston engine turns a lot less R.P.M. something like 2,750 I think is what My helicopters engine turned at.

 

Note if you watch many gyroplane and experimental helicopter Videos on you tube, the pilots if smart are practicing power off landings and spot landings.

 

Hope this info helps.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Dreamin of a Commuter 2B

[apiaguy]

in autos...

ignition module failure (complete engine shutdown)

Main ECM fuse blown (exposed wire arc) complete engine shutdown

heater core hose blown.. overheat had to pull over

multiple vehicles overheating issues in hill climbs, blown radiators, pinholes in radiators etc...plus transmissions going out.

broken timing belt including bent valves

 

in aircraft..

mag arcing at altitude (and on take off) but was able to continue to destination

Edited December 12, 2013 by apiaguy

[aeroscout]

Had an engine failure in a Beech 58. After we landed we found it was just a fuel problem.

Never drove an accord though.

[adam32]

We had an engine roll back to idle in the 212, kept flying on the other engine until we got it figured out. Score one for twin engines!

[Wally]

I might have to amend my initial response:

1. Pinto that would just quit running, CND at the shop, and;

2. Ex-wife roasted a Mazda rotary when the water when it blew a coolant hose, ran it until it wouldn't move anymore. It never was the same after that...

 

I'm a lucky SOB in helicopters:

1. A UH-1H engine seized, solid, at night in Vietnam, but on the ground.

2. Twinstar, in flight, left engine dropped a stator vane, compressor stalled and quit, but auto-relit and flew to base.

 

So, two engine failures each, car and helicopter.

 

I hate hearing somebody say "most of the time the aircraft falls from the sky."... More training, Sir!

[ridethisbike]

Aircraft: 0

 

Cars: Overheating, had to pull over and add coolant

Another time, the bolt used to adjust the alternator (that was the cars belt tensioner) sheared off. Noticed lights going dim and just barely made it to my destination before it died off. Sold that car after the oil pump went out to a friend who planned on fixing it up. He ended up not doing that, but rather just driving it until the engine seized up on him.

 

Motorcycles: I've fouled plenty of spark plugs on dirt bikes (2 stroke engines) and had one who's crank bearing decided it wanted to seize up

 

My street bike has been a nightmare lately. It's either a short somewhere or a faulty switch, but it keeps tricking the ecu into thinking that the side stand is down, which kills the engine if it's in gear. It usually just prevents me from starting the bike, but it has died on me a couple of times while in motion.

[500F]

In autos

Had a connecting rod come apart on a chevy 350 in a camaro when I was 17.

Blew a head gasket in a honda civic and limped it home. Until I switched to synthetic oil, I dont think I ever made it past 3100 hours on an oil change, but I know my wife did. I've had a couple tire blow outs.

 

 

In aicraft, had a magneto fail in a hover in an R22 at 50 hours TT (my time, not the helicopter). I noticed I was decending while pulling to the redline so i just set her down. Also had a clutch solenoid failure in the pattern also uneventful. No actual failures that required an auto.

[Black Bear]

Still have and drive a 91 Accord that I bought in 1991. It has 300k miles, with zero problems since 91. Even started on the first try at -16 degrees here in Colorado last week. Great cars.

[Eric Hunt]

In aircraft, 14,000 hr total, 12,000 turbine, and never an engine problem.

 

Cars, some computer-driven problems in a year-old (piston) car that caused it to go into limp-home mode, still under investigation.

[Spike]

In-flight engine failure in a 300 and fuel pump failure in a Porsche 924 on the Oakland side of the SF Bay Bridge during rush-our traffic. Both could’ve been deadly………

[gary-mike]

In aircraft, 14,000 hr total, 12,000 turbine, and never an engine problem.

 

Cars, some computer-driven problems in a year-old (piston) car that caused it to go into limp-home mode, still under investigation.

Trade it in for a turbine powered car ;-)

[palmfish]

Ive had a handful of automotive incidents over the years. Its never been an "engine failure" though. A couple of alternator failures and one bad ignition coil.

 

It hasnt been mentioned yet how aircraft engines and automobile engines are designed to operate in very different environments. The biggest difference being RPM changes and the corresponding horsepower/torque variability.

[adam32]

 

 

I hate hearing somebody say "most of the time the aircraft falls from the sky."... More training, Sir!

 

Except it's true...An aircraft has nowhere to go but down, and we haven't left one up there yet!

[gary-mike]

There are aircraft that were seen leaving the ground and never seen again back on it....

[aeroscout]

There are aircraft that were seen leaving the ground and never seen again back on it....

I'm looking for investors who know the value of a lightly used Bermuda triangle.

[yzchopper]

The flight school I trained at in Caldwell, ID had a couple engine failures/forced landings, when I trained there. Both were in the S300C. The engine blew a rod thru the side of the engine while in a slow hover taxi over the taxiway and was landed in the grass strip between the two taxiways. The Chief pilot and student were not hurt. The forced landing came when the Chief pilot was doing commercial ops pollinating a cornfield and the clutch cable broke during a turn and the helicopter was landed in the cornfield and destroyed. The pilot walked away with a sore ankle due to the sudden stop caused by the ground. The school leased an R44 Astro after that to replace the S300C and has never used another S300C.

[UH60L-IP]

I've got a few thousand in various helicopters. Had a number of other issues, including a couple serious, but never an engine failure.

 

Just this past week here at Rucker a student with maybe 20-30 hours in the UH60 had an engine failure. His IP was next to him of course and a roll-on was performed.

 

You may go a whole career with nothing real eventful. You might only go a couple of weeks. That's kind of the point of ongoing training.

[Jaybee]

It is pretty common down here in the South for automobiles to go 100,000 miles with nothing more than oil changes. 100,000 miles is the 50 mph average equivalent of 2000 hour. If you could go to 2000 hour TBO with nothing more than oil changes and an air or fuel filter there would be a lot of happy happy operators out there.

 

Part 23 and 27 certification rules are on the table right now for redress. They are looking to optimize the rules to make becoming certified easier. They are looking at this because the the 1000's of RVs and other experimentals are out there proving every day that not only can they do it safely but they can do it better and cheaper.

 

Now as much as I'd like the idea of throwing a Sequential Multiport fuel-injected individual coil on plug high compression auto fuel water cooled engine into my aircraft - comparing the two is apples and oranges, obviously.

The big sticker though, while everyone's testimony may be true - it is ancedotal at best. Certificated aircraft have a dedicated maintenance schedule. While again, everyone's testimony is true, I have to question the maintenance. There is no prop noise hiding engine noises. A coolant hose just doesn't blow off - if inspected properly it would give notice to its impending doom. O2 sensor causing engine failure - sorry I can't buy that, I'm a retired auto mechanic as well as an A&P.

 

Anyhow, I did not come to argue whether the life of someone's automobile could have been extended through proper maintenance and operation. For that matter, I've never had an engine failure in an automobile, always plenty of warning if you pay attention. I've had two certificated aircraft engine failures - one was from left field, the other gave warning signs but with only 100 hours of rotorcraft flight time under my belt I didn't know any better what to look for - now I do.

 

Remember back in the 70s when automobiles still used carburetors, points distributors and leaded fuel ? tune-ups were a regular enough thing that there was a tune-up shop on every other corner. pulling heads for a valve job ? pretty standard thing in most shops, in fact most techs back in the day could grind valves in shop back then. In the twilight of my automotive career, shoot... I think maybe I've seen 3 valves jobs in the last 15 years ? I've seen plenty of 100,000 miles cars with nothing more than oil changes though. For that matter, I got one in my driveway with 200,000 miles on it never had the engine apart. Better yet, my daughter is running around in a 1995 Saturn with 300,000 miles on the original engine - though I did re-ring it @ 275,000.

 

You might get a better comparison if you were to compare automobile engines to experimental aircraft, since they are not regulated to 91/135 maintenance standards. Now if they could design a multiport fuel injection system where the dual magnetos were used as back up system power in case of a battery failure (triple redundancy) that would be pretty cool in my opinion.

[Nearly Retired]

Jay, a long, long time ago I considered taking a Harley Davidson "big twin" engine and putting it in a single-seat gyrocopter. Unlike the smaller Sportster engine, the larger of the two Harley V-twins was just two cylinders and a crankcase, separate from the transmission (not a "unit construction" design like every other motorcycle on the planet). I figured I could put a belt drive PSRU on it so I could turn the engine at 5000 rpm and turn a prop at 2500. Sounds like a plan, right? Until...until I thought about turning that long-stroke Harley engine at 5000 rpm all day just to get it to produce 80 h.p. or so at the crank. I thought about the piston speeds and came to my senses.

 

(On the other hand...last summer I rode my Harley Sportster from Washington State to Florida -3000 miles total. Interstate nearly all the way at 70-75 mph which works out to about 4000 rpm for hours and hours and hours on end, morning until night. I was obsessing like crazy about the piston speeds of that big, tall motor, but it never missed a beat - and nothing fell off! The bike has 25,000 miles on it, with a lot - but not a ton - of Interstate travel. The rear cylinder is chuffing a little smoke out when I start her up now, and I suppose that I'm going to have to re-ring it soon - at least before the next banzai trip across the country.)

 

100,000 miles in a car *may* be the equivalent of 2000 hours of operation, but let's look at the duty cycle. Aircraft engines frequently operate at 75% power all of the time. For a 180 h.p. engine, that means it's producing 135 horsepower all the time, usually at 2500 rpm (we're talking airplanes here). I wonder how much horsepower a Lycoming O-320 engine would produce if we got one to turn up to 5000 rpm? And I wonder how long it would last if we operated it continuously at that speed?

 

Most car engines these days turn between 2500 and 3000 on the highway, comparable to an aircraft engine. But to push a car down the road at 60 mph only requires somewhere between 10 and 20 horsepower. If a 180 h.p. automotive engine were to spend its life cruising on the highway for 100,000 miles/2000 hours, it would be using roughly 10% of that power. Sure, anybody could warranty that the engine would last 100,000 miles at that rate. And most automotive engines rarely, if ever, see a demand for full-throttle/max power. I literally cannot remember the last time I floored the accelerator on my car and ran it up to peak horsepower, which would be somewhere around 4000 or 5000 rpm I'm sure.

 

Taking your basic 185 h.p. Honda Accord four-cylinder engine and asking it to run at 75% power (139 h.p.) all the time is kind of a gamble. I would be very, very surprised if the guys running that 2.5 litre Subaru engine in their RAF gyrocopters at 5000 rpm (or more!) are getting 2000 hours of service out of them. I love that Subaru motor, but jeez even I don't believe it's that strong.

 

So what kind of engine would you need to produce a reliable, continuous 130-140 horsepower over the course of a warranteed 2000 hour TBO? Well, one that was waaaay overbuilt (and commensurately heavy), an "oversquare" design (for low piston speed) of low compression and operating rpm...oh, and air-cooled for lightness and simplicity, please. You know...like the aircraft engines we have today.

[Jaybee]

Right on NR, I wasn't advocating car engines in aircraft.

 

I was reminding the difference between 70's era gas hogs that couldn't make 10,000 miles without a tune up (let alone 50,000 without a valve job) compared to a modern car that does easily 100,000 without a tune up.

 

That technology on aircraft engines is what we need not the engine itself (interestingly enough, you may just find such things - on experimentals !)

[Joe_P148]

Adam where are you getting these engine faure statistics?