Radio call for 180 auto

[Jay Bunning]

Hi all,

When performing a 180 auto from a high downwind, direct to final I currently use a radio call something like "Simulated engine failure, high right downwind, direct to final 16" but we are a very busy uncontrolled airport with many helicopter operations and everyone has their own version and I've heard airplane pilots complaining that 180 radio calls did not make sense - they were unaware of where the helicopter was (especially if there were 2-5 other helicopters on CTAF).

So others who have worked in a busy training environment - what radio call do you use?

Have you worked with fixed-wing operators to find to a standard radio call that makes sense to all users?

Many thanks

[Flying Pig]

"Simulated engine failure from the left downwind leg of 15". In an airplane that maneuver would be called a "power off 180".

If you are at an airport with a lot of airplane tragic make it plain talk. 180 auto from high right down wind doesn't mean anything. Actually, it does but airplane pilots often view helicopters as invaders. I've seen some crotchety old airplane drivers make total asses out of themselves jut trying to make things difficult for the R22 guys in the pattern. I even heard one pilot at an uncontrolled airport tell a student pilot that the airport was closed to helicopter traffic. The R22 guy was saying "student pilot" before every transmission. I got on the radio and told the R22 guy that he was good to land and where to go.

The biggest thing is make is generic, no helo slang and just talk normal.

[pilot#476398]

"Helicopter 666BM turning right downwind to final", or try "...right downwind making short approach"

 

Uncontrolled airports can really suck sometimes! I avoid the runways as much as possible whenever I'm at one.

Edited December 15, 2013 by pilot#476398

[rotormandan]

Right or left down wind, simulated engine fail to mid field runway15 or to the numbers, or if to taxiway, to Taxiway A2 or B3 intersection. I think the key is to say your landing point. A 180 done from downwind to a runway or taxiway is usually to mid field or a certain point. An airplane will always expect you to land at the begining if you call a runway.

[WolftalonID]

The proper term would be "High short final...."

 

At the airfield I trained at, we uses the south side of the field for heli patterns while the fixed wings use the published pattern to the north.

 

We also are blessed with a very nice full length taxiway parallel the runway.

 

Our 180's are set up with a pattern to the taxiway. Infact we try and avoid the runway and leave it mostly for the fixed wing guys. We can always quickly side step hover into the grass area between the runway and taxiway.

 

A typical radio call for us sounds like this.

"Helicopter 89zulu final approach taxiway parallel 30 echo intersection"

 

So a 180 would be said like this

 

"Helicopter 89 zulu high short final taxiway parrallel 30 echo intersection"

 

Then we go and alway fly defensively prepaired to power on and go around if ground traffic does something to make anything unsafe.

 

See if the airport manager will work out a plan with your training school to help facilitate flow of traffic. Opposite patterns, taxiway approaches, published helicopter training areas etc. That way those cranky old guys have a reason to avoid causing issues.

[apiaguy]

Why not....

"Right downwind 16"

Simple, concise...if the runway is clear for landing and you are #1 why all the extra verbiage. I agree on the radio that is too much and difficult to understand what's going on.

[pilot#476398]

The proper term would be "High short final...."

 

 

 

Wouldn't the airplane guys find that confusing,...since they're usually above us?

 

Why not....

"Right downwind 16"

Simple, concise...if the runway is clear for landing and you are #1 why all the extra verbiage. I agree on the radio that is too much and difficult to understand what's going on.

 

If you don't say you're turning final, then the other guys in the pattern may not know where you are? Especially the jackass coming straight in who doesn't bother saying anything!

[Flying Pig]

The times Ive done autos to a runway, Ive just simply said "Left/Right base to final Rnwy 33" If I say downwind, by the time they look, Im already on the ground. In the airplane world, if you say downwind, that tells me you could still have a couple minutes until you land. If Im an airplane on final, and I hear you are in the downwind, you aren't a factor at all.

 

Im telling' ya…. airplane pilots have 0 understanding of helicopter ops. And with the older generation of weekend warriors, they don't care. As i said above, Ive dealt with many who will go out of their way to make things difficult for a pilot inbound in a helicopter to their beloved uncontrolled airport.

 

I was flying in with the departments MD500E once and went direct to the big landing area at a quiet uncontrolled airport. Made all my calls, etc etc. I had some old codger actually approach the helicopter as I was in the cool down giving me the "cut" sign like he was trying to saw his own head off. I think he got even more mad because he thought I was idling to waste time. My partner and I both agreed there was no emergency that would warrant an emergency shutdown because my partner was actually standing outside the helicopter with his helmet still plugged in looking around. After we got shut down, I talked to the guy who wanted to give me a very stern lesson on flying a standard traffic pattern and asked if I had ever actually taken flying lessons. His parting line was "I don't know why the hell anyone would want to fly these things anyway." What was even better was the next day I flew into the same airport in a sweet Cessna T206H for lunch at the airport restaurant. As I come walking out to get out of dodge, guess who I find admiring my flying machine No joke, as soon as he found out I was an airplane pilot, we were like blood brothers. I stood there and had the nicest conversation with him, showed him the camera system, etc etc. No mention of the events just 24hrs earlier. There is a helicopter school at the same little airport. So it wasn't like he'd never seen one before.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Flying Pig

[WolftalonID]

Why would the airplane guys be above me? My radio calls for high short final are for ground traffic. Not for airplanes landing on the runway in pattern north of me. But we use the taxiway, so I have to keep in mind that fixed wing planes taxing or leaving an active runway are not considering a heli is about to crap all over their world from above.

Pilots familiar with our presence seem to wait for us, but visiting pilots you never know!

[WolftalonID]

Flying pig.... You had lessons?

[Flying Pig]

I'm just a LE Aviator. We don't need lessons and we usually get turned loose on our own after we solo.

[UH60L-IP]

"654PB, mid-field left downwind to final, runway 16, simulated engine failure."

 

Who you are, where you are at, where you are going, what you are doing. I thought that was pretty universal.

[Nearly Retired]

If I was operating a helicopter at a "busy" uncontrolled field, I doubt I would be using the runway at all. I'd find a piece of grass or taxiway so I didn't have to rush things. Coming to a hover over an active runway is just asking for trouble, as is making helicopter-type tight patterns and short approaches and sandwiching yourself into the flow of fixed-wing traffic we're supposed to be avoiding. No, I would not be doing practice autos to an active runway - that's just not a good idea. If a suitable area of the airport could not be found, I believe I'd go somewhere safer.

 

If I was the only helicopter working at the place, making repeated practice autos (or even just closed traffic) to a parallel taxiway or grass area, then periodically I'd simply make "blind" announcements such as, "Helicopter operating in the grass area west of runway 16, making right closed traffic." You don't have to make every "downwind," "base," and "final" call. It's usually too hectic in the cockpit anyway during those times, and you and the student should be focusing on the manuever, not slavish devotion to R/T procedures.

[Spike]

Boogers traffic, Helicopter 7-Alpha-Hotel short approach runway one-six, Boogers…..

[yzchopper]

WolftalonID,

I trained in Caldwell and had a regular fixed-wing pilot cut underneath me after I lowered the collective for a simulated engine failure to the taxiway parallel 30. I had made all of my calls and reported what my intent was and the airplane pilot on was a 3 mile final from Nampa when I was on my base to final. I dropped about 100ft after lowering the collective when he flew under us and he almost landed on the taxiway not quite mid field. I was flying with my Chief pilot at the time and after we landed we had to keep the Chief inside the office as he was ready to knock some common sense into the airplane pilot. As we taxied in after completing the maneuver and behind the airplane the Chief asked the airplane pilot if he had heard our radio calls. He stated he did, but we needed to avoid the flow of fixed-wing traffic. He flew under us and tried to be first to land and almost caused an accident. AS for the radio call, "Helicopter 15F Short Finally Taxiway Parallel 30."

[iChris]

"654PB, mid-field left downwind to final, runway 16, simulated engine failure."

 

Who you are, where you are at, where you are going, what you are doing. I thought that was pretty universal.

 

Since you’re normally coming from a downwind position abeam the runway with an immediate turn, doing 180s, I’ve used about the same.

 

Podunk traffic, Helicopter 4PB mid-field left base to final runway 16, Podunk

 

“Short Approach” works too, since it simply means that you’re cut your downwind short and turn early for your base leg. However, helicopter short approaches are often shorter than fix-wingers expect, so I use mid-field.

 

Sometimes it may even be better to fly the opposite traffic pattern, right vs. left.

 

§91.126 Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class G airspace

 

Direction of turns. When approaching to land at an airport without an operating control tower in Class G airspace—

 

(1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right; and

 

(2) Each pilot of a helicopter or a powered parachute must avoid the flow of fixed-wing aircraft.

 

§91.113 - General. When weather conditions permit, regardless of whether an operation is conducted under instrument flight rules or visual flight rules, vigilance shall be maintained by each person operating an aircraft so as to see and avoid other aircraft.

Edited December 16, 2013 by iChris

[Hand_Grenade_Pilot]

"(CTAF name), (Call sign), (Position), (Altitude), (Intentions), (CTAF name)"

 

"Donkeyville Traffic, Helicopter seven-mike-alpha, left downwind runway 27, 800 feet, starting short approach, Donkeyville traffic".

 

I would avoid ambiguous statements such as 'high' or 'low'; a specific altitude means the same thing to everyone.

 

Omitting which leg you are currently on is misleading as well. If you simply call 'short final', you are implying that you are already lined up with the runway.

 

When landing parallel to a runway on a taxiway, I would say something like this; "Donkeyville Traffic, Helicopter seven-mike-alpha, left downwind runway 27, starting short approach, landing parallel to the runway on taxiway alpha".

 

To put inbound/outbound fixed wing traffic at ease, you can also throw in the statement 'Remaining clear of the active at all times".

 

Unfortunately, some fixed wing pilots will always be confused by helicopter operations. Sometimes we fly our helicopter like an airplane, but they can never fly an airplane like a helicopter.

[iChris]

The Chief asked the airplane pilot if he had heard our radio calls. He stated he did, but we needed to avoid the flow of fixed-wing traffic. He flew under us and tried to be first to land and almost caused an accident.

 

§91.113[g] - When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft.

Edited December 16, 2013 by iChris

[apiaguy]

Re edit... I agree with nearly retired... No business doing "traffic patterns" at an airport that has active fixed wing traffic. Avoid them.. Fly a crazy different "pattern". Don't use the runway at all... There is really no need to... It bugs me to see helicopter schools flying around the airport like airplanes. It's one thing to enter the "pattern" to approach the field... Entirely another to clog up the airspace in a helicopter unless there is no one else out there.

As for Caldwell... The robinsons there do act like they are in an airplane pattern and while they approach the taxiway, I agree with that airplane guy... Avoid him. The purpose of using that taxiway is to avoid them but your getting awful close unnecessarily. The school should know better and it has a bad reputation in the fixed wing world because it's lack of teaching airplane/helicopter ops. That chief pilot was wrong IMHO.

[Jaybee]

Why would the airplane guys be above me?

 

Really ?

 

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/list/AC%2090-66A/$FILE/AC90-66A.pdf

 

9 a(4) is what your are looking for. Not trying to be a dick just can't believe schools don't teach this.

Ahem, I see apiaguy's post... I see.

 

@ Jay Bunning - "podunk traffic - helichopper 123 is right downwind 15 power off 180 to taxiway, podunk traffic"

[WolftalonID]

I actually have a copy of that AC printed in my lesson book for reference and teaching.

 

My statement stands. Where I fly my statement stands, Fixed wings are patterned to the north, I dont fly under them I fly on the south side. Now if and when a fixed wing flies unexpectedly into my path, I have a decision to move or cause an accident. I move.

I try to avoid redneck brawls over it, but there have been many stories similar to what yzchopper told. Some I was witness to, some involved with. Caldwell airport is a busy environment.

 

I am aware not every airport offers the same setup and it may be seen differently by those who are subject to operations that are not the same.

 

Apiaguy...you train here? If not, lets keep the crap rumors down amongst fellow rotor heads. We cant ever make lesser trained weekend warrior fixed wing pilots understand we have legal rights to train how we do. Silverhawk has an outstanding record of safety, safety mindedness, and dedicated staff that dont tolerate risky or dangerous flight attitudes or actions.....however, I have seen more than one hothead come through that shouldnt be in a heli, in any form or fashion.

 

How would you recomend we train?

[pilot#476398]

Why would the airplane guys be above me? My radio calls for high short final are for ground traffic. Not for airplanes landing on the runway in pattern north of me. But we use the taxiway, so I have to keep in mind that fixed wing planes taxing or leaving an active runway are not considering a heli is about to crap all over their world from above.

Pilots familiar with our presence seem to wait for us, but visiting pilots you never know!

 

They would be above you because airplanes usually fly their patterns at higher altitudes than us.

 

I guess I just never thought of making a radio call from the air to warn planes on the ground that I'm about to land. If I'm on my way to the taxiway and someone drives onto my spot, I just move over to the grass,...its happened more than once.

[pilot#476398]

How would you recomend we train?

 

Not to be that guy,...but...

 

You could just go somewhere else?

 

I only mention it because at the school where I got my Private we didn't do any training at our home airport, every flight I did was either to an off airport practice area or another airport.

 

Later though I did shoot a lot of instrument approaches to a busy non towered airport,...now there's a fun time!

 

Oh yeah, during my Private checkride an airplane guy did come on the radio and tell us that helicopters weren't supposed to practice at that airport,..the DPE next to me gave him what for!

Edited December 16, 2013 by pilot#476398

[apiaguy]

 

Apiaguy...you train here? If not, lets keep the crap rumors down amongst fellow rotor heads. We cant ever make lesser trained weekend warrior fixed wing pilots understand we have legal rights to train how we do. Silverhawk has an outstanding record of safety, safety mindedness, and dedicated staff that dont tolerate risky or dangerous flight attitudes or actions.....however, I have seen more than one hothead come through that shouldnt be in a heli, in any form or fashion.

 

How would you recomend we train?

 

Caldwell is not that busy... Courteous behavior in the airport environment is a must anywhere... The idea that a chief pilot would about come unglued over an airplane right of way confusion is unprofessional to say the least.

No, I don't train there... I did my first heli training at the Nampa airport in '93 in an R22 (I do hate to admit that). That was 4 years before David started silverhawk with N171FF I grew up in the area and return often in both fixed and rotorcraft. I'm very familiar with how ops go there and I understand both sides. It is my opinion that silverhawk could educate their pilots better or do more to prevent the stigma that exists... It is not crap or rumor. Saying things like "lesser trained" or "weekend warrior" or having to say it is your legal right doesn't validate anybody and only demonstrates a rotor arrogance.

[Jaybee]

I actually have a copy of that AC printed in my lesson book for reference and teaching.

 

My statement stands. Where I fly my statement stands, Fixed wings are patterned to the north, I dont fly under them I fly on the south side. Now if and when a fixed wing flies unexpectedly into my path, I have a decision to move or cause an accident. I move.

I try to avoid redneck brawls over it, but there have been many stories similar to what yzchopper told. Some I was witness to, some involved with. Caldwell airport is a busy environment.

 

 

Huh ? What ?

 

If you follow the guidance of the AC then you should fly a pattern on the opposite side that the fixed wing guys use at an altitude 500' lower than the fixed wing guys. 500' lower is under where I come from. Flying an opposite pattern is pretty standard fare where I come from.

 

 

edit - I think I know what you were saying when talking under, I meant only in altitude not actually underneath.