Helicopters Beware: Sonoma Sky Park (0Q9)

[HeliNomad]

Today I am transitioning overhead mid field at 2000 AGL from East to West making normal calls and what not. I get within 5 miles East of the field and a women on the radio says: "Helicopter flying overhead would you please transition away from the airport, we have a new student pilot in the pattern." The student pilot was on his first upwind take off and had just called his crosswind turn without saying his altitude. I quickly pulled up the A/D on my G500H to find the TPA was 1000 AGL which confirmed with my TAS system showing him roughly 1200' below me and climbing. I said, "Sonoma Sky Park Traffic, pilot requesting helicopter to leave the area I'm not sure you can ask me to leave the area but I understand the extra space for the solo pilot, I am more then 1000 above him and should be no factor...now 3 miles east at 2000 westbound transition crossing midfield". Irritated by that she said "well thanks a lot!" I called my midfield call, my 3 mile west, and my final 5 mile west call and switched frequencies. What the french just happened here?!?!?!?! I mean these guys are famous for "hating helicopters" it's even in their A/D "rotorwing turbojet are prohibited" but damn I can't even fly over now. I fly the quietest (and best looking ) single engine helo in the industry and I still can't help but rub some fixed winger the wrong way 2000' below me. I have heard horror stories from my CHP helicopter neighbors about Sonoma Sky Park but nothing first hand. One helo pilot friend of mine said "If you lose an engine, don't ever do a successful auto to Sonoma Sky Park, they'll kill you anyway." Anyone else have experience with this field???

[rotornut67]

Who the FLIP do they think they are? People like that are detrimental to all of general aviation not just to helicopters. I'm sure its not only helicopters they snub their noses at. Anyone that doesn't "fit" their "idea" of what a pilot should be would get snubbed I'm sure. I bet it's the "noise" they don't like huh??

Well listen up Sonoma Air Park...I don't like the sound your little propeller makes either and I am over 2,000 miles away. LOL

 

Sorry about the rant (I've only had one cup of coffee this morning) but that completely ticks me off!

 

Oh yeah: I bet they wouldn't mind the noise of an EMS helicopter if it was there to haul their uppity rear end to a Level 1 Trauma center, or their child or grandchild to a pediatric trauma center would they??

 

OK, I'm done...it's time for me to go beat the air into submission

Fly safe everyone and God Bless.

Edited December 27, 2013 by rotornut67

[apiaguy]

She asked nicely for you to avoid the student and field. You responded like a jackass. What do you expect? "I'm not sure you can ask me to leave the area?" Seriously? Your not sure? Or were you being facetious?

Your flying around in class e airspace crossing a class g airport...why did you even report there?

Sounds from your post you went looking for trouble and found it. Good grief.

[Nearly Retired]

Hey, some people/airports just don't like helicopters. I wonder why? Maybe they had some negative experiences with helicopter pilots in the past? You know, like helicopters coming in and doing "dumb" things like cutting right across the traffic pattern or active runway...or doing practice autos right to the runway of a "busy" airport from a tight, close-in downwind while making confusing radio calls...or landing right to the ramp and blowing people's sh*t around...stuff like that. Sometimes we are our own worst enemies, especially when we do stuff that is "legal" but not always neighborly...just because we can.

 

Not saying that this is what happened here. I'm just making mention that as an airplane pilot/owner I've seen a TON of wacky things that my fellow helo pilots do that leaves other airplane pilots shaking their heads and going, "Idiot!"

 

Anyways, back to the matter at hand, as my teenage son often says (and he thinks I don't know what he means - hah!). If it had been me with the OP in that EC120, I would've keyed the mic and said, "Maria, what the heck are you doing in San Francisco? You just get yer butt back to Wicca-burg, missy, and leave me and my helicopter alone. I'm well clear of your traffic. OVER AND OUT!"

 

Then I would've shut off my radio and kept on truckin' like I was in a Grateful Dead song (in honor of the Bay area where they were from).

 

But...! One wonders how the OP managed to call Sonoma at 5 miles east, which would've put him right smack-dab in the Class D airspace of Napa County (APC) where he would presumably still be talking to (or at least in contact with) Napa's control tower. If he'd come over the city of Napa, he'd be 5 NE not 5 E. Quibbling, yes, and I know, I know...lots of helicopters have two radios. But I'm a master quibbler. If I were a fisherman I'd be a mast...errr...well it's why I don't take my son fishing.

 

Over and out.

[pilot#476398]

Awh, give her a break! Its no surprise that a fixed-winger can't handle it when someone else is near the airport!

[Spike]

Two words... NO FACTOR.

[aeroscout]

Seems like a perfect opportunity to see and avoid.

[HeliNomad]

She asked nicely for you to avoid the student and field. You responded like a jackass. What do you expect? "I'm not sure you can ask me to leave the area?" Seriously? Your not sure? Or were you being facetious?

Your flying around in class e airspace crossing a class g airport...why did you even report there?

Sounds from your post you went looking for trouble and found it. Good grief.

 

Look, perhaps I was wrong in following her extremely non-standard call with another semi non-standard call but yes of course I was being facetious. If anything I was, as usual being cautious. The bay area is really not used to helicopters around these small GA airports. Standard position calls in and around these small non-towered airports is just good sense. If you think bombing past airports like this without a call is a good idea...then we just plain disagree.

 

Hey, some people/airports just don't like helicopters. I wonder why? Maybe they had some negative experiences with helicopter pilots in the past? You know, like helicopters coming in and doing "dumb" things like cutting right across the traffic pattern or active runway...or doing practice autos right to the runway of a "busy" airport from a tight, close-in downwind while making confusing radio calls...or landing right to the ramp and blowing people's sh*t around...stuff like that. Sometimes we are our own worst enemies, especially when we do stuff that is "legal" but not always neighborly...just because we can.

 

Not saying that this is what happened here. I'm just making mention that as an airplane pilot/owner I've seen a TON of wacky things that my fellow helo pilots do that leaves other airplane pilots shaking their heads and going, "Idiot!"

 

Anyways, back to the matter at hand, as my teenage son often says (and he thinks I don't know what he means - hah!). If it had been me with the OP in that EC120, I would've keyed the mic and said, "Maria, what the heck are you doing in San Francisco? You just get yer butt back to Wicca-burg, missy, and leave me and my helicopter alone. I'm well clear of your traffic. OVER AND OUT!"

 

Then I would've shut off my radio and kept on truckin' like I was in a Grateful Dead song (in honor of the Bay area where they were from).

 

But...! One wonders how the OP managed to call Sonoma at 5 miles east, which would've put him right smack-dab in the Class D airspace of Napa County (APC) where he would presumably still be talking to (or at least in contact with) Napa's control tower. If he'd come over the city of Napa, he'd be 5 NE not 5 E. Quibbling, yes, and I know, I know...lots of helicopters have two radios. But I'm a master quibbler. If I were a fisherman I'd be a mast...errr...well it's why I don't take my son fishing.

 

Over and out.

 

It's an EC-130 and yes of course it has two radios. Yes, I was already in contact with Napa Tower as I was inbound for landing there. Anyway, the point is that there is clearly animosity towards helicopters from fixed wing GA. It rears it's ugly head too often for my taste. I have a feeling that if fixed wing pilots spent even 1/3 of the time we spend understanding how they operate they would have a better tolerance for our presence.

[troll.detector]

She asked nicely for you to avoid the student and field. You responded like a jackass. What do you expect? "I'm not sure you can ask me to leave the area?" Seriously? Your not sure? Or were you being facetious?

Your flying around in class e airspace crossing a class g airport...why did you even report there?

Sounds from your post you went looking for trouble and found it. Good grief.

Ok, here we go....

[troll.detector]

"dumb" things like ... practice autos right to the runway of a "busy" airport from a tight, close-in downwind while making confusing radio calls...

Love these topical references (although think that guy was making a fairly good question-post).

[Wally]

The traffic advisory call at an untowered airport is good practice. The request "Helicopter flying overhead would you please transition away from the airport, we have a new student pilot in the pattern." is not routine and you have no way of appraising the importance of the request (or prejudice against helicopters), but it confers no obligation on you one way or the other- the requesting party was not exercising control of the airspace.

[yzchopper]

HeliNomad,

I agree that fixed-winged pilots should learn a little about helicopter operations just as we learn a little about their operations. It's sad to say, but this fixed-wings don't like helicopters is not just in the full scale world. I fly R/C helicopters and frequently visit helicopter forums and the R/C world is just the same. Fixed-wingers do not like helicopters anywhere near "THEIR FIELD" but yet the field is for all forms of flying aircraft, not just the airplanes.

[HeliNomad]

The traffic advisory call at an untowered airport is good practice. The request "Helicopter flying overhead would you please transition away from the airport, we have a new student pilot in the pattern." is not routine and you have no way of appraising the importance of the request (or prejudice against helicopters), but it confers no obligation on you one way or the other- the requesting party was not exercising control of the airspace.

The prejudice was in her tone...clear as night. Wish I had a recording from my Zulu headset! Your right that I had no way of evaluating the importance of the call except being over 1000' above him and seeing him on TAS ascending slowly to level off at ~1100' gave me the conclusion I was safe to transition. I don't let controllers fly my aircraft much less some worried mother trying to create some TFR against helicopters.

[dankaten]

So if you had said something like "thanks for the heads up about the solo pilot, I will keep my eyes open" do you think that would have gone over a little better than what you said? Just asking since we all know that airplane people don't particularly like helicopter people. Instead of antagonizing them just show how courteous you can be. You know they were not in the right and they probably knew it as well but you didn't need to bring it to their attention.

[HeliNomad]

So if you had said something like "thanks for the heads up about the solo pilot, I will keep my eyes open" do you think that would have gone over a little better than what you said? Just asking since we all know that airplane people don't particularly like helicopter people. Instead of antagonizing them just show how courteous you can be. You know they were not in the right and they probably knew it as well but you didn't need to bring it to their attention.

 

Your maybe right. Had I not been already inbound for Napa sequenced for traffic landing there I probably would have been a bit more curtious. Oh well...next time I'll drop flowers.

[Nearly Retired]

Wait...what? You were inbound for Napa County (KAPC) and they ran you way out west over Sonoma?? WTF!

[dankaten]

Your maybe right. Had I not been already inbound for Napa sequenced for traffic landing there I probably would have been a bit more curtious. Oh well...next time I'll drop flowers.

No wait, in other words you are always right so no problem with dropping the flowers.

[MileHi480B]

No wait, in other words you are always right so no problem with dropping the flowers.

 

What? I didn't get that "I'm always right" tone from him.

[HeliNomad]

OMG... Why is it hard to imagine that I would be approaching APC from the West? I don't know what nerve I struck...but man is it sometimes difficult to get good information on this forum with all this conjecture flying around.

[WolftalonID]

Lol....cowboys...sometimes its hard to just let someone tell their story here without it becoming a yardstick rodeo. I liked your OP...was interesting enough, and I have no input for you sorry! Haha

[troll.detector]

...but man is it sometimes difficult to get good information on this forum with all this conjecture flying around.

I'll second that.

[iChris]

Two words... NO FACTOR.

 

The traffic advisory call at an untowered airport is good practice. The request "Helicopter flying overhead would you please transition away from the airport, we have a new student pilot in the pattern." is not routine and you have no way of appraising the importance of the request (or prejudice against helicopters), but it confers no obligation on you one way or the other- the requesting party was not exercising control of the airspace.

 

That sums it up.

 

....but man is it sometimes difficult to get good information on this forum with all this conjecture flying around.

 

The traffic advisory call in the blind at a non-towered airport is good practice. However, after you’ve made that call you’ve done your duty. No need to respond to some fool on the ground.

At the most, “No Factor” or “ Traffic in Sight”

Otherwise, it normally ends up looking like:

Hail the airport queen on one end; Hail the bad-ass EC-130 pilot/owner on the other end.

Or

Fool on one end; Foul on the other end.

Or

Little bit of both on each ends of the communication.

Edited December 29, 2013 by iChris

[HeliNomad]

I agree...should have said in sight and no factor...outcome I guarantee would have been the same minus the tounge lashing I'm getting over this from my fellow pilots on this forum haha.

[Nearly Retired]

Look, I was just confused, okay? The OP said, "Today I am transitioning overhead mid field at 2000 AGL from East to West making normal calls and what not. I get within 5 miles East of the field..." He further states that he did go overhead Sonoma and departed their area to the west. TO THE WEST.

 

Out of curiosity I looked at a chart and saw that Sonoma is well WEST of Napa County. "5 miles east" of Sonoma is *within* Napa's Class D.

 

Then the OP says he was actually *inbound* to Napa while he was transiting through Sonoma. So I was naturally confused as to why Napa would route him out over Sonoma - must've been some crazy approach.

 

So pardon me. I'm just trying to understand what the heck he was doing. Because it's not clear from his posts.

[d10]

Things not to do at untowered airports in order of dumbness:

 

1) Ignore the CTAF frequency entirely

2) Attempt to close off the entire airspace every time a student makes a solo traffic pattern

3) Argue with somebody who presumably isn't even in the air at the time where you're allowed to fly in uncontrolled airspace