Tell me your story.

[Maverick7]

Hi, I'm in my way to becoming a helicopter pilot for the army. I haven't had any luck talking to current army aviators to hear any advice or experiences. If you wouldn't mind sharing your past experiences, obstacles, or advice you've discovered while on your way to achieving your goal, it would do me a great favor while I'm attempting to achieve mine. I would much appreciate it.

[BDP22]

First off, welcome to the forum! You've picked a tough, but rewarding road. I am currently in the process and my advice would be to go back through old threads and read as much as you can on this forum. You will read about many different hurdles people have faced throughout the process and also find out if this is the right choice for you.

 

If I recall correctly you are still in high school. I wish I had planned that early. Good luck to you.

[Maverick7]

Many thanks! Good luck to you as well!

[Flim]

I'm in the same boat... Just turned 33, but have some inside help from a cw3 to get the age waiver. I'm a fixed wing ATP civil dude, but have always wanted to fly in the Army. So, I'm going to give it my best shot for the May board. Currently studying fro the Sift... old high school math is fun to re-learn!

[ryan53]

hello! I don't have any experiences in the military field of aviation but have some experience that may be valuable to you in the civilian field. Many military aviators that I hear of have trouble getting out of the service and securing a job. The reason is due to their lack of hours that may have been accumulated over a long period and the lack of single pilot operations. I'm sure there are others out there that have varying ideas and/or experiences? If so, Maverick and I would like to hear them. From the civilian side that's what I've come to know. Maverick, the thing you need to ask yourself is why you are pursuing this career. Is it to fly a lot of time and do many varying missions that helicopters are capable of? Or is it to serve your country and fly here and there? The civilian side is by no means easy and by no means fast but the military side is comfortable and surely slow, especially now a days (my own opinion). I would certainly be interested in answering any questions you may have about the industry of civilian helicopters and can do my best, with no experience, to answer any questions you have about the military sector. I began flying helicopters when I was 18 years old. I admire your drive.

[Maverick7]

Many thanks to you Ryan. I've surprisingly come to hear that a lot. The way I envisioned it was the military would be the majority of my flight hours. I should have know with all the budget cuts pilot hours would be getting cut. And to answer your question I say, "Without a sign, his sword the brave man draws. And asks no omen but his country's cause." - Homer. The military has been instilled in me ever since I can remember. I just want to follow my dream of aviation and be able to use it when I get out. My dad wanted to be a pilot when he was a kid, he got tired of school and quit. He's been very supportive in helping me achieve my goal. He says he want me to accomplish something or make something out of myself. So I knew I was going to join the military throughout my whole life. Now that I've discovered that while I'm serving my country it can serve me and train me to do something I have a passion for.

[Maverick7]

It makes it so much sweeter.

[2ndGen]

You will not fly as much in the Army, as even other services, remember aviation is a branch of the Army, and we are treated as such. I got into army aviation for the biggest reason that they 100% are there to support the soldiers on the ground, our motto "above the best" is duel meaning. I wanted to be that guy that swooped in with the .50 cal and rockets to help a pinned down infantry squad gain the offensive and clobber the enemy. Just from experience, if you have any desire to put steel on steel, fly army. CAS never gets authorization to drop anymore, and the Apaches don't much either, but they are the ground support staple in our new style of war. (Cobras for the marines). They are far more accurate with TADS and can put rounds exactly where they want them, which is a huge benefit when looking for that ground commanders approval.

 

Don't join for flight hours, join for another reason.

[Joe_P148]

Is it to fly a lot of time and do many varying missions that helicopters are capable of? Or is it to serve your country and fly here and there? The civilian side is by no means easy and by no means fast but the military side is comfortable and surely slow, especially now a days (my own opinion).

 

 

Military is slow compared to what?

 

If hours is what you are looking for, start writing them down in a book, at the end of the day it means squat to me. I've seen countless pilot's with countless hours that have logged it flying straight and level cruising, holding over a target or sitting on a pad.

 

Hours does not make an Aviator... Experience does, period.

 

Someone once told me that an Aviator with 1,500 hours in 10 years has much more experience then a pilot with 2,000 hrs that made it quickly.

 

Aviators are still flying and some are making well above minimums, it is all about timing. The Army is winding down from a decade of War. We have lost, and are continuing to lose Aviators and crew to simple things. Look at all the names posted on Army Aircrews.com as an example of that. Our airframes are broken or well out of tolerances, our force is tired and our country is in a recession. But the Army will still fly, just not as much as they did during the Wars.

 

If you just want to be a helicopter pilot for the hours, this may not be the job for you. Not because you won't get flight hours. But, because everyone in your unit well see right through it, especially your command.

 

The Army is changing, and in order to be successful in today's Army, you have to be the total package. This means, professional, a leader, an officer and a subject matter expert i.e. proficient pilot.

 

 

You will not fly as much in the Army, as even other services, remember aviation is a branch of the Army, and we are treated as such.

 

Where are you getting your information on these flight hours for comparison with other services?

[brackac]

 

 

 

 

Where are you getting your information on these flight hours for comparison with other services?

 

 

I was wondering the exact same thing. I haven't met a civilian yet with > 4K rotary time, but my last unit had multiple guys over 4k,and another group over 3K.

[Flim]

200-250 a year is not bad ... It's what corporate pilots usually fly.

[aeroscout]

 

 

I was wondering the exact same thing. I haven't met a civilian yet with > 4K rotary time, but my last unit had multiple guys over 4k,and another group over 3K.

You don't know many utility guys. A mid time utility guy would have in the range of 20,000 hours.

4,000 hours would be considered low time there.

[ryan53]

The Military is slow compared to the civilian side. A higher time guy in the civilian side, will probably have between 10-20 thousand hours. The reason being, you are paid to fly. If you aren't flying and the company isn't making money on your flying, it doesn't make much sense to have you on payroll to fly. The military is not the same concept. "I've seen countless pilots, with countless hours that have logged it straight and level, holding over a target or sitting on a pad". What does that mean? Instructing? You can't get experience without the hours. Each sector and operation has its challenges. I wouldn't say that because you developed the hours "quickly", that you are not a good pilot. I would say that it greatly depends on what type of operation you are performing.

[Velocity173]

Yeah what Joe said above.

 

First, Army Aviators (Warrants) will generally fly more than other services. Did everyone forget about the article recently about AF pilots turning down bonuses to get out? They're getting out because they aren't doing the job (flying) like they thought they would. You can get on Airwarriors and read about the same problems Navy & Marine are having. After 12 years I had almost 3,900 hrs. No one can compare to that in other services. Now a commissioned guy? Yeah, they won't be anywhere near what the other services fly.

 

200-250 hrs per year? Not today unless someone is an IP or they're lying on their flight time. You'll get about 150-200 hrs if you're lucky. One acronym you new candidates need to get familiar with; AVCATT. More sim time, less actual flying.

 

Comparing civilian flying to military is apples to mangos. Two completely different types of flying. Obviously most civilian pilots will get more time than military. The planning time, logistics and operating costs of the Army are too great to compete with civilian hrs. But, Is a civilian pilot going to be doing a section air assault, dust landing under goggles? Are they going to be hammering the enemy with .50 cal & rockets so MEDEVAC can slip in and pick up wounded? Nope...and Nope.

 

Not a single one of my friends have had a problem getting a job. They served during the war years and accumulated hours quickly. If they don't have the time, well then they simply stay in past their initial obligation until they get the time. Out of 16 pilots in our local EMS program, I believe 11 are former military. Out of the 11 we have, 9 former army and 2 Marines. All the flying we do is SPVFR and SPIFR. While the single pilot stuff does take getting used to for most military guys, after a few days in the aircraft qualification course, they've got it down.

 

It's a total package guys. When we're young and naive we only think about the cool flying in the military. Once you get it you realize that there's far more to being an Army Aviator than you thought. You might have been hired to do an MOS but you'll spend just as much time working at being an officer.

[d10]

One acronym you new candidates need to get familiar with; AVCATT.

 

 

Literally the worst memories of my career. I didn't mind the deployments, I didn't mind the JRTC rotations or the PT sessions led by guys who thought pain and discomfort was the key to a good workout. But that machine gives me nightmares.

[UH60L-IP]

My story (part of it).

 

Had a good non-aviation career but wanted to fly. Put myself through flight school and earned a bunch of hours. Decided to make my hobby of flying a career and the Army seemed like a good option. I walked into the recruiters office and 17 days later (you read that correctly) I was selected for WOFT. Until I entered on duty I didn't realize it took people months or longer to get selected - guess I was lucky, and what they were looking for, and had a good recruiter.

 

With my prior experience I made PC quickly, deployed, was in a unit that flew a lot (700 hours in one 12 month tour), and came back to teach at Rucker as an IP. Easy shmeezy.

 

Concerning hours, jobs, and civilian equivalency. I won't say exactly how many hours I have but it's at least four digits and doesn't start with a "1" so I have flown plenty. It didn't take a full Army career to get there, not by a long shot. There are very few jobs posted here, on JSFirm, or elsewhere that I cannot check all the boxes.

 

Civilian and military flying are two different things - I've done both. To say that military is at a disadvantage because they fly less is generally wrong in a few ways. #1 if you are in the right airframe and the right unit you will fly plenty. #2 many civilians only fly 100-200 hours per year - think of many EMS jobs, etc. #3 you can make an argument that an employer might take a 1000 hour Army guy who has plenty of turbine, twin turbine, night, NVG, mountain, sling loads, and actual instrument over a 1500 hour civilian with 1000 hours in an R-22 and 500 in a single turbine in the Gulf, with very little night, no goggles, all simulated instrument, no slings, no mountain time, etc. I'm not knocking either one (again, I've done both), but assuming you have the minimum number of hours for the job, experience is likely going to be the discriminator over sheer hours. I simply don't buy the argument that it's hard to transition to single pilot - so I don't have a low time guy in the seat next to me who may actually be making my flying job "harder." I think I can handle that.

 

To sum it up, fly what you want - civilian or military. You likely know the pitfalls of the civilian side (low pay to start, finding a job, etc.). All these guys that say the Army doesn't fly seem to forget that the civilians who put themselves through flight school may take twice as long to earn the ratings only to not find a job for another year, and then get by on beans and rice as an instructor for another year or two, only to get a bottom feeder job until they have the hours to move into a, you guessed it, 200 hour per year EMS gig. Getting hours, if that is your goal, doesn't happen over night in the civilian world either. The military has plenty of pitfalls as well but assuming you are not a turd and actually put forth a significant amount of effort, you'll make PC, track, and end up being qualified for all those jobs before you know it.

 

Oh, and I hope I never have 20,000 hours. That would suck. Even in a 30 year career that means flying 670 hours per year, every year. That is way too much work. I like having a life. Personally, I think many of those "20,000 hour pilots" have nowhere near that but simply stopped counting long ago and "guesstimate." I don't really care. Better them than me anyway. I like flying, but that's a long dang time to be sitting in helicopter.

[brackac]

You don't know many utility guys. A mid time utility guy would have in the range of 20,000 hours.

4,000 hours would be considered low time there.

I don't believe that for a second. Yes, there are guys out there with 10k+ hours, but every single one I have met is either prior military or contracted for the military. It's just not really feasible for the majority of civilians to rack up the 2,500 hour turbine time that most rotary jobs are asking for. Of the 9 companies I have looked at for post-military employment, the lowest hour requirement was 1500 hours. Not many civilians have the checkbook that can support the hourly rate of just a renting a 206 for 1500 hours. Yes, there are medflight employers hiring at 600 hours, but even then a civilian will be over 100k out of pocket from getting qualified and then accrueing hours. T

hat's why the rotary community is full of prior military. It's the easiest way to accumulate hours.

[d10]

brackac, you don't seem to be aware of the typical civilian progression. Nobody rents a 206 for 1500 hours, you get between 1000-1500 in a Robbie then land a job flying tours or offshore which will get you all the turbine time you want. And the people who stick with that because they enjoy it will easily reach 10k hours because they're doing jobs that will fly 500-1000 hours per year every year early in their career. There's no way to get hours like that in the military.

[Joe_P148]

D10 - it's bull sh*t hours, flying over water for hours?

 

Most of those guys are pencil whipping thier logbooks anyways.

 

I Don't buy it...

 

A mid range pilot has 20,000 hours I call BS on that.

[UH60L-IP]

I don't buy the 20,000 hours either. There might be a few out there but that would be a huge exception to the rule. Break out a calculator and see just how that works out. That's 500 hours per year, every year, for 40 years straight with no break.

 

People get to a few thousand hours, stop logging time, and then simply throw out a number when asked. That's the easiest way to get to 20,000, and about the only way except for a rare few.

 

There are guys down here at Rucker that I've seen get their 10, 15, and yes, a couple of 20 grand awards. However, those guys did 20 years in the Army, were issued Air Medals for their service in the Civil War, have been contractors flying students daily for another 315 years, can't stand up straight, and probably should have died 20 years ago, when they celebrated the 90th birthday for the umpteenth time. They only continue to breathe because they can't stand the thought of giving up the ability to ridicule young LTs for not being able to regurgitate "spike knock" on demand.

 

So there's a few, but most of those bloated numbers are from guys who have an ATP in No. 2 pencils.

[Rob1237051]

...side of the square hole...mounted on the roof.

[akscott60]

The only time I ever heard and felt it is when stumpy demonstrated a zero ground run auto.

 

That was rough.

[LTF]

Now that is funny....and not far from the truth! But you forgot the part about flying the helos to the museum for display. There are quite a few who migrate back to Mother Rucker after "punching out". I never understood that or had the desire. Most of the higher flight time pilots I know don't log their time as you stated. It gets to be a pain in the butt and what is the point after 10k or 15k or even 20k. I figured my 759 was good enough. It is too bad the Army doesn't track IFR or other types of time that the civilian world seems to care about.

[I3uller]

I don't buy the 20,000 hours either. There might be a few out there but that would be a huge exception to the rule. Break out a calculator and see just how that works out. That's 500 hours per year, every year, for 40 years straight with no break.

 

People get to a few thousand hours, stop logging time, and then simply throw out a number when asked. That's the easiest way to get to 20,000, and about the only way except for a rare few.

 

There are guys down here at Rucker that I've seen get their 10, 15, and yes, a couple of 20 grand awards. However, those guys did 20 years in the Army, were issued Air Medals for their service in the Civil War, have been contractors flying students daily for another 315 years, can't stand up straight, and probably should have died 20 years ago, when they celebrated the 90th birthday for the umpteenth time. They only continue to breathe because they can't stand the thought of giving up the ability to ridicule young LTs for not being able to regurgitate "spike knock" on demand.

 

So there's a few, but most of those bloated numbers are from guys who have an ATP in No. 2 pencils.

This needs to go in a book or be immortalized somehow.

[d10]

D10 - it's bull sh*t hours, flying over water for hours?

 

Most of those guys are pencil whipping thier logbooks anyways.

 

I Don't buy it...

 

A mid range pilot has 20,000 hours I call BS on that.

 

I don't think offshore flying is bullshit hours. It's a lot of experience landing to small LZs with little visual reference, lots of decisions to make about weather. 20,000 hours will never be mid range but I don't remember anyone claiming that. If you were to pick a random pilot with >10,000 hours I'd bet he's civilian trained though. Either that or a Vietnam era pilot.