Converting Military to Civilian Hours

[Direct C51]

I am currently an AH-64D pilot in the US Army and will be getting out in about 10 months. I am set on pursuing an HEMS job and am trying to figure out the industry standard on what is acceptable when converting military flight time per a 759 to a civilian logbook in compliance with the FARs.

 

I have referenced the following excerpts from the FARs which I am trying to interpret.

 

"Part 61.51(e)(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;"

 

"Part 61.51(e)(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted;"

 

I have approximately 1100 hours PIC in the AH-64D. I also have approximately 900 hours as PI in the AH-64D. If I assumed I was sole manipulator of the controls 1/2 the time I was the PI, would I log a total of 1550 PIC in my civilian logbook? Or is PC time the only thing I can log as PIC and PI time would be SIC?

 

Also, per AR-95-1 flight time starts once the aircraft leaves the ground. Per FAR Part 1.1 "(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing." I generally taxi out to an empty spot on the ramp, do HIT checks, read a before takeoff check, wait for takeoff clearance, and during test flights I am sometimes doing checks for 30 minutes or more. Would it be acceptable to add a .2 to each flight to account for this?

 

My 759 would obviously not match this, and would hate to lose credibility if this is not the industry standard. I would also hate to not log this time if it is the way everyone else is doing it, and lose out on a job because I didn't log what I could have. I'm looking for some insight on the way the HEMS employers would like to see my civilian logbook vs my 759.

[Dnr032]

I would not start a civilian logbook untilyou leave the Army. Just keep a copy of your final 759. Wait and do a civilian logbook after you leave the Army and start flying civilian.

 

I would not log that additional .2 per flight. How many flight did you do that semi-annual? Where did you get that number from? I don't remember anywhere on the -759 that counted flights...... Like you said, you may loose credibility with your resume time not matching your -759 time.

 

I would, however, when you do your resume count 1/2 your PI time as PIC time. Any former military pilot will understand your resume vs your -759. Be prepared to explain your numbers to a pure civilian pilot.

 

Please, show up to the interview with a civilian medical. The last retired military guy we interviewed, when asked for a copy of his medical, handed us his military medical records. Uhm, No that will not cut it!

 

Just my .02 cents. Good luck.

[Direct C51]

The 759 does not show the number of flights, but a -12 printout does, as well as my excel logbook I have for every military flight I have completed. I could easily go back and add a .1 or .2 to each flight if this was an accepted practice. If not, I still meet the minimums and certainly don't want to look like I fudged the numbers.

 

I do plan on getting a civilian class ii medical about 3 months prior to getting out. Thanks for the advice.

[H60SPIE]

 

 

Adding the extra .1 or .2 would serve no purpose as the .1 or .2 you have already gained during shut down according to AR 95-1, since you are allowed to log time until the engines stop and not once the aircraft comes to a rest after landing.

 

As far as splitting your time I would see no issue with it. For the Hawk guys we don't get to log CP time while at Rucker even though I could probably claim close to 100 hours and have the -12's and 759s to prove it I have never added it to my totals as it may raise questions among employers as to what else I have adjusted in my favor. I think you would be well within the scope of the CFR to do what you are saying but be prepared for people to question your decision.

[WolftalonID]

Civilians arent as smart as military people. We cant count as high, so hours only go up to twelve then start over!!! Lol

[aeroscout]

The major airlines are familiar with this aspect of military flight time. On their application they give allowance for a .2 addition for every flight to account for taxi time that civilians are logging, and that military don't.

I would be ready to add in a cover letter or interview that you have additional legitimate flight time as per the FAR definition, and include that estimate in a letter or be ready to in an interview.

[pilot#476398]

Adding .2 to every flight? Is this the same as that "skids up to skids down" vs. "engine start to engine shutdown" thing we had a while ago?

[aeroscout]

Adding .2 to every flight? Is this the same as that "skids up to skids down" vs. "engine start to engine shutdown" thing we had a while ago?

You might be overlooking the fact that the vast majority of helos in the Army don't have skids. An Apache certainly doesn't. But even if they did the same rules apply. Chock to chock or block to block times are entirely consistent with the definition.

[pilot#476398]

You might be overlooking the fact that the vast majority of helos in the Army don't have skids. An Apache certainly doesn't. But even if they did the same rules apply. Chock to chock or block to block times are entirely consistent with the definition.

 

So...?

 

Does this mean that you military guys log time only when you're off the ground (or from the "collective" hobbs as the R44 would put it) and so when converting to a civillian logbook you want to add the time you spend on the ground with the blades turning?

 

By the way, both the Cobra and Huey have skids,...and those are the only military choppers I like!

Edited January 29, 2014 by pilot#476398

[Direct C51]

So...?

 

Does this mean that you military guys log time only when you're off the ground (or from the "collective" hobbs as the R44 would put it) and so when converting to a civillian logbook you want to add the time you spend on the ground with the blades turning?

Bingo. Sounds like someone has never flown with wheels. Our military regulations state flight time is logged once the aircraft is airborne or begins it's takeoff roll. This is not what the FARs use to log flight time. I spend at least 10 to 15 minutes ground taxiing to an empty place on the ramp, taxi check, HIT checks, before takeoff checks, waiting for linkup and takeoff clearance. That is not including test flights where I spend even more time after taxi.

[rick1128]

First of all I am assuming that PI time is time as an instructor. If you were acting as an instructor you can log all that time as PIC. As an instructor YOU are responsible for the safety of the aircraft. It is possible and legal is some situations that both pilots can log PIC time.

 

For recording your flight time in the AH64, do you use a hobbs meter or clock time? The reason I ask is that in many helicopters with a hobbs meter, it runs when you pull any collective. And you would have to pull some collective to taxi. If that is the case, you may already have the taxi time accounted for. If you are using clock time, you may use a conversion to convert the time difference from military flight time to civilian flight time.

 

However, many employers understand the military records flight times differently than civilian and will not give you any grief over your resume flight times not fully matching your military records as long as you have a consistent method of doing the change over.

[Dnr032]

PI time is SIC time in an Army aircraft.

 

Army aircraft do not have hobbs meters. All flight and maintenance time is solely derived from what the PIC logs on a form in the aircraft logbook called a -12.

[superstallion6113]

First of all I am assuming that PI time is time as an instructor. If you were acting as an instructor you can log all that time as PIC. As an instructor YOU are responsible for the safety of the aircraft. It is possible and legal is some situations that both pilots can log PIC time.

 

For recording your flight time in the AH64, do you use a hobbs meter or clock time? The reason I ask is that in many helicopters with a hobbs meter, it runs when you pull any collective. And you would have to pull some collective to taxi. If that is the case, you may already have the taxi time accounted for. If you are using clock time, you may use a conversion to convert the time difference from military flight time to civilian flight time.

 

However, many employers understand the military records flight times differently than civilian and will not give you any grief over your resume flight times not fully matching your military records as long as you have a consistent method of doing the change over.

 

Not sure how some other wheeled and skid helos are in the military, but all of the military helicopters I've worked on do not have a hobbs meter. I've worked on the CH-53E, multiple variants of the H-60 Black/Sea Hawk, and the CH-46E. They have a weight on wheels switch that released start counting flight time in the AIMS, IMDS, IVHMS, whatever monitoring system the aircraft is equipped with. So it only counts time when that weight on wheels switch is released as the tires leave the ground.

[Wally]

At the risk of belaboring an obvious point, you are responsible for your logbook. The military, any operator keeps records for different purposes that you, so differences can rationally be expected. Example, my employer previously used Hobbs time, indicated in tenths of an hour, while I track time by the minute and round to nearest tenth at the end of the day. The Hobbs frequently didn't match my time (off and on the ground) and introduced further potential error by being in an awkward location, easy to misread.

 

I don't log the time I'm performing pre- and post-flight checks as I'm not convinced that that meets the definition. I have flown with instructors and PICs who do so, that's their call. I wouldn't shotgun a rule of thumb correction or change category per military flight record unless I spoke with somebody at the company who indicated that they understand the basis of that action. "Aeroscout" suggested the best possible solution in suggesting a cover letter. You can get more flight time much more quickly than you can restore credibility...

 

Does your Excel log per civilian rules? If not, I would reconcile that immediately, correct any errors and continue keeping a civilian logbook for all further flight activity.

[helonorth]

I have never had anyone look at my logbook in quite a few interviews over the years. I would ask your peers what they are doing but I bet you will get a different answer from everyone you talk to. If you are qualified in the aircraft and doing the flying, it sure seems like PIC time to me. As for logging the taxi time, I would say when the aircraft is taxiing, it is "moving under its own power for the purpose of flight". Taxiing time seems to be recognized as flight time in an airplane as long as there is intention of flight. Why not in a helicopter? I'd log it.

[Spike]

Over my career, no one has ever asked to see by book either…. With that, the numbers in your book will rank about 16 on the list of the 20 most important things a 1500 hour pilot applicant should know in order to get a job. And, while a few EMS operators have 1500 hour minimums, most hover around the 2000 to 3000 range. Therefore, as you search for a job, it may be advisable to seek other options in order to build the additional hours while transitioning into the civilian marketplace.....

 

Thank you for your service to our country.

[Direct C51]

Spike - Perhaps you did not read my original post correctly. I have over 2000 hours, not 1500. I meet the requirements of most EMS companies.

 

Do you mind divulging some of the 15 more important things than flight hours that I should have? I am certainly interested.

[sardog]

When I recently did the same thing, I interpreted the FARs as time spent as an Aircraft Commander as PIC and time spent while on the controls as a qualified in type pilot as PIC. My local FSDO agreed with my interpretation.

[Spike]

Spike - Perhaps you did not read my original post correctly. I have over 2000 hours, not 1500. I meet the requirements of most EMS companies.

 

Do you mind divulging some of the 15 more important things than flight hours that I should have? I am certainly interested.

 

Got it, my bad….

 

As far as the list is concerned, it was just in jest to get you to understand the big picture of the civi sector. However, the elements of; attitude, judgment, CRM-flight, CRM-med, “I’m not in the military any more”, ops specs, part 135 FAR’s, facial hair, “I’m not in the military any more”, weather turndowns, DO’s , CP’s, corporate culture, “I’m not in the military any more”, ADM, etc., are just a few worth mentioning……..

 

 

 

 

(The reference of “I’m not in the military any more” comes from an article posted on Justhelicopters years ago....)

[adam32]

Not having another pilot sitting next to you all the time..."not in the military anymore"...

[wbrady755]

Bringing up the idea of "CP Time", we log this time when we have a rated pilot serving as a crew chief (when we are short on crew chiefs, pilot switch-outs mid-mission, etc). Has anyone ever seen this logged or put on a resume? I would LOVE to add about 200 hours onto my resume haha.