jjsemperfi Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Question for you guys. Lets say someone was a rated fixed wing pilot and transitions to the helicopter for an add on private. Why couldn't they log PIC for all flights (weather solo or not) after either their initial helicopter solo or a PIC endorsement (in Robby's)? I realize we can't, but I just don't understand, and probably shouldn't try, the thought process behind this. Even though it is a different category, the pilot is proficient enough to either solo or receive a PIC endorsement, why can't they log PIC from thenceforth? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilot#476398 Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 You won't be getting a PIC endorsement for Robbie until after you become a rated helicopter pilot, so afterwards you can log PIC all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick1128 Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 It really doesn't have anything to do with the SFAR 73 endorsement. And a lot to do with Part 61 reference 61.51 (e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights- (i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate; (ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft; (iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; or (iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided— So until you get the helicopter rating on your certificate you can not log PIC as you are not rated on the aircraft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjsemperfi Posted February 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 I understand that we can't, just seems strange. So what about supervised solo? You won't be getting a PIC endorsement for Robbie until after you become a rated helicopter pilot, so afterwards you can log PIC all the time. You're saying that a student pilot doesn't need a Robby PIC endoresment to go solo? I may be confused on this because most of my students do initial training in a 300C, and instrument / SFAR CFI stuff in the R44. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilot#476398 Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) You're saying that a student pilot doesn't need a Robby PIC endoresment to go solo? I may be confused on this because most of my students do initial training in a 300C, and instrument / SFAR CFI stuff in the R44.Yes Non- helicopter rated pilots and student pilots need a "solo endorsement", which requires 20 hours dual and is only valid for 90 days, SFAR 73 b(3) and (4). Once your students have their ppl in the 300C, THEN they would only need 10 hours dual in the R44 and the PIC endorsement, which will only be valid for 12 months until they have 200 hours total in helicopters with 50 hours in that particular Robbie, SFAR 73 b(1) and (2). The Robbie PIC endorsement and solo endorsements are two different animals . Edited February 18, 2014 by pilot#476398 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilot#476398 Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) I understand that we can't, just seems strange. So what about supervised solo? During my supervised solos, my instructor was on the ground watching as I flew around the pattern. During that time I was sole occupant, and was thus logged as PIC, 61.51 e (4). Edited February 18, 2014 by pilot#476398 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjsemperfi Posted February 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 During my supervised solos, my instructor was on the ground watching as I flew around the pattern. During that time I was sole occupant, and was thus logged as PIC, 61.51 e (4). For a 141 program we can perform a "supervised solo" while onboard with the student and it counts for a rating. This is why the reg doesn't make much sense to me because if the FAA says we can be in the aircraft while the student logs PIC during a "supervised solo" then why couldn't they log PIC anytime after the solo? Just strange to me I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjsemperfi Posted February 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 And SFAR 73 (2)(ii) states that to act as pilot in command (so a solo student pilot) you have had at least 10 hrs dual from CFI and an endoresemnt from a CFI stating that the individual can act as pilot in command of the aircraft. So the way I read this..... even a solo student pilot needs the robby PIC endorsment along with the standard solo endorsements in logbook and medical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjsemperfi Posted February 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Not trying to argue with ya here. I'm just a pain and like to know the "why's" behind most stuff. And in most cases a simple, "because the FAA says so" will suffice. Still curious why some regs are the way they are. Like Part 91 photo flights. I could take people up and fly them across the country for a photo flight but can't take those same people on a "tour" without an LOA, a drug program, past 25 miles, all sorts of stuff. Just seems silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilot#476398 Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) For a 141 program we can perform a "supervised solo" while onboard with the student and it counts for a rating. This is why the reg doesn't make much sense to me because if the FAA says we can be in the aircraft while the student logs PIC during a "supervised solo" then why couldn't they log PIC anytime after the solo? Just strange to me I guess. After 20 hours dual I was jonzin' to fly by myself, so it doesn't make sense to me why anyone would want a CFI sitting next to them during solo training? Plus flying alone is important for building confidence! By the way, having a CFI sitting next to someone and calling it a solo flight, supervised or not, makes even less sense to me! Edited February 18, 2014 by pilot#476398 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred0311 Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 Insurance may not sign off on a student soloing a more expensive aircraft from what I understand so the instructor sits there all quiet "just in case". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilot#476398 Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 (edited) And SFAR 73 (2)(ii) states that to act as pilot in command (so a solo student pilot) you have had at least 10 hrs dual from CFI and an endoresemnt from a CFI stating that the individual can act as pilot in command of the aircraft. So the way I read this..... even a solo student pilot needs the robby PIC endorsment along with the standard solo endorsements in logbook and medical. SFAR 73 b (3) covers non-rated (i.e student) pilots! I realize that putting it after the section on PIC can make it seem confusing, but for a student pilot to solo a Robbie they're gonna need 20 hours and a solo endorsement! 10 hours dual and a PIC endorsement ONLY applies to RATED HELICOPTER PILOTS, not solo student pilots! Edited February 18, 2014 by pilot#476398 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikemv Posted February 18, 2014 Report Share Posted February 18, 2014 JJ, "Like Part 91 photo flights. I could take people up and fly them across the country for a photo flight" -do you really think this is within the intent of the regs? Do you bring them back to the original point of departure? Would you offer this to anyone or just professional photographers on a business project with valid results? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolftalonID Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 (edited) I personaly did not log hours as PIC in the R22 until my checkride. My DPE told me it was not dual and it was my first true rated pilot flight. My first 5 hours of R44 time even though I was a rated Pilot, were not logged as PIC, being it took having the 5 hours of transition training to gain that R44 PIC endorsement. I plan on flying till I am old, fat and happy, or old fat, and a drunken ass which ever comes first! ;D In those years to come I plan on logging thousands of hours of PIC and probably some SIC, and probably a few more Dual training hours for a transition or three or five along my career. I never saw the point in scrounging for one or two or twenty hours where the PIC was really the CFI sitting next to me. If I dont get hired over a 10-20 hr difference....theres always the next offer that realizes that wasnt really the reason. So log hours as PIC when you truely are Pilot In Command, not a student flailing about the cabin needing desperatly to apply more under arm antiperspirant thinking they are the big dog.... ( students... Low hour pilots.....be reminded and myself included we are the heli's bitch still and she will remind us often! ) Log transition hours as dual, not PIC, or even SIC when no endorsement or type rating has been issued. Be honest, and in the long run it all works out! Edited February 19, 2014 by WolftalonID 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilot#476398 Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 I personaly did not log hours as PIC in the R22 until my checkride. My DPE told me it was not dual and it was my first true rated pilot flight. My first 5 hours of R44 time even though I was a rated Pilot, were not logged as PIC, being it took having the 5 hours of transition training to gain that R44 PIC endorsement. So, does that mean you didn't log the solo hours you got during your private training as PIC even though (I'm assuming, like me) you were the sole occupant of the aircraft, which does allow you (according to 61.51e(4)) to log it as PIC? ...or is this another 141 thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pohi Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 Is this supervised solo thing new for 141? When I did my 141 training, the only students who could legally log supervised solo were multi engine airplane. I don't have any regs handy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjsemperfi Posted February 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 After 20 hours dual I was jonzin' to fly by myself, so it doesn't make sense to me why anyone would want a CFI sitting next to them during solo training? Plus flying alone is important for building confidence! By the way, having a CFI sitting next to someone and calling it a solo flight, supervised or not, makes even less sense to me! Absolutely agree with you on that one. However we're not too keen on sending students solo at night so that reg is pretty nice in that respect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjsemperfi Posted February 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 Is this supervised solo thing new for 141? When I did my 141 training, the only students who could legally log supervised solo were multi engine airplane. I don't have any regs handy. Yeah it's pretty new, I think it was new to the 2013 FAR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjsemperfi Posted February 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 JJ, "Like Part 91 photo flights. I could take people up and fly them across the country for a photo flight" -do you really think this is within the intent of the regs? Do you bring them back to the original point of departure? Would you offer this to anyone or just professional photographers on a business project with valid results? Absolutely. If someone wanted to pay me to fly them accross the US for a photo flight, as long as I brought them back to their point of departure I'd be within the regs. You can't slap a disposible camera in someone's hand and call it a photo flight though. Many a business has been shut down like that. It all goes back to the origional intent of the flight. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjsemperfi Posted February 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 SFAR 73 b (3) covers non-rated (i.e student) pilots! I realize that putting it after the section on PIC can make it seem confusing, but for a student pilot to solo a Robbie they're gonna need 20 hours and a solo endorsement! 10 hours dual and a PIC endorsement ONLY applies to RATED HELICOPTER PILOTS, not solo student pilots! Gotcha, that's what was confusing to me. Thanks. I asked one of our other instructors who had done initial training in the robby, and he said he still gives the PIC endorsement before solo even though our DPE says we don't have to. The DPE said it doesn't hurt to do it anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilot#476398 Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 Absolutely agree with you on that one. However we're not too keen on sending students solo at night so that reg is pretty nice in that respect. Didn't do any solo flights at night during my private training. Is that new too? Also, since its technically a solo flight do you remove the other controls? Plus what does the CFI do on these flights? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilot#476398 Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 Gotcha, that's what was confusing to me. Thanks. I asked one of our other instructors who had done initial training in the robby, and he said he still gives the PIC endorsement before solo even though our DPE says we don't have to. The DPE said it doesn't hurt to do it anyways. My first PIC endorsement for Robbie was given to me after my checkride, simply titled, "PIC after checkride". I still don't quite understand the way you are doing it, but oh' well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolftalonID Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 So, does that mean you didn't log the solo hours you got during your private training as PIC even though (I'm assuming, like me) you were the sole occupant of the aircraft, which does allow you (according to 61.51e(4)) to log it as PIC? ...or is this another 141 thing? It wasnt a 141 thing...just the way my primary instructor put thought out....I rather agreed and still do. I have 226 tt hours and can legally teach now. My PIC is 132. Granted I took what seemed forever to finish my private and that is my main hr separation right there. Give it a year...and it wont even be an issue to cry about at night with my whiskey like I am right now....*sniff sniff* damn it pilot...look what you did to me..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjsemperfi Posted February 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 My first PIC endorsement for Robbie was given to me after my checkride, simply titled, "PIC after checkride". I still don't quite understand the way you are doing it, but oh' well? And now I know that was correct as you don't need one when you're a student pilot. I just think it is strange that Robinson and the SFAR do not require you to have a PIC endorsement if solo and "acting as PIC". I think it silly that someone wouldn't log PIC even if they were the only one in the aircraft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilot#476398 Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 - Not logging solo time as PIC even though the regs allow it? - Handing out Robbie PIC endorsements to student pilots? - Flying with your CFI and calling it a solo flight? ITS A MAD HOUSE, A MAAAAAAAAAD HOOOOOOOUUUUSE! ...guess which movie was on earlier!? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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