ARNG/Reserve Pilot Take Home Pay

[UH60L-IP]

I'm active duty right now but planning ahead for whether or not I choose to get out or have to get out due to cuts/promotion rates. Still a couple of years away before I reach that crossroad.

 

Should a person leave active duty with say 10-12 years (CW2/CW3) and go Guard/Reserve, what does the monthly pay look like?

 

For the record, yes, I can look at pay charts and do some math. That doesn't necessarily reflect what an average Guard/Reserve pilot makes in the end though.

 

Basically, some input from current Guard/Reserve pilots would be appreciated. How many days per month do you actually end up working, flying, etc.? And then, what kind of income comes along with that when all is said and done?

 

I know days and flying can vary by state. Just some indicators from current part-timers would be nice. Thanks.

[Yamer]

I don't know the answer you're looking for if you want to stay as an mday pilot in a unit, however I would suggest looking for an IP job at an AASF as a technician. It would allow you to continue flying on a regular basis and work on a weekly schedule alig with your mday status of one weekend a month. Or even a MTP job. I don't know your certifications.

[UH60L-IP]

IP/SP, and to be honest I don't know if I would be all that interested in a tech job. I'm sure not against working more than just a couple of days per month, but I am thinking more along the lines of having a non-military related job but still flying in the Guard/Reserves.

[Yamer]

Here in az, IP and SP are tech/AGR jobs. To be a weekender you'd be a line pilot, I think.

 

As for pay, I just asked a newly pinned apache driver in my unit who got back 6 months ago from Rucker and he said he's making 25k in drill pay plus Aftp hours. At WO1

[UH60L-IP]

Awesome, thanks.

 

I didn't know that about IPs/SPs - being tech/AGR jobs. I wonder if that is all states(?).

 

I'm not totally against being a tech/AGR warrant. I was simply under the impression that those jobs were a little harder to come by so I wasn't giving it much primary consideration. Rather, I'm entertaining the idea of getting a civilian job and simply flying Guard/Reserve as required. Admittedly, I don't know a whole lot about how the Guard/Reserves work though so my thoughts could change on that.

 

But for a WO1 making 25k in drill pay/AFTP hours alone - that's pretty good. That'll supplement an income no doubt.

[CharyouTree]

If you're already an IP, there's nothing particular keeping them from having you be an IP as well. Especially if they're short staffed. The way we work though, if you join the unit and you're IP, TACOPS and MTP already, but they NEED a safety guy, or an ALSO... that's where you could end up. It's kind of crazy. Obviously that's a bit extreme, but having only one track is sometimes a rare thing in the Guard, in my experience.

 

 

 

Ok, I ran the numbers out of curiosity...

 

I'm a W3 with >10 years, and >6 years aviation service, so I'm doing pretty well. If I do EVERY AFTP (72) MUTA (48) and AT, by my calculations, I would gross 24.6K. 3K of that is flight pay alone.

 

Conversely, a WO1 with 6 years, and less than 2 aviation (If he's a W1, he's got less than 2... no way around it) Doing the same amount of drills and AFTPs is getting 16.7K. Flight Pay for all

(Before posting, I thought that I may have see somewhere that Apache units got 96 AFTPs per year, and I re ran the numbers with that, though I'm not sure if it's accurate. I still got less than 20K. The only way I can get to 25K for a W1 is with 96 AFTPs per year, and >16 years of service. )

 

 

 

-IP: It depends on your state and how many AFTPs they authorize per year. When the budget first came out this year, my state had a knee jerk reaction and authorized us like...20 each for rated, or something crazy low. Apparently a few weeks ago, they bumped it back up to 72. Your mileage may vary. We're allowed to do 2 per day, with at least 4 hours per, and we're supposed to log an average of... 1.5? hours per AFTP. No flies, we're authorized 1/2 of our allotted AFTPs. Those can be academics done at the facility (CBAT, ROC-V, ACT-E, whatever) and you can even do online courses through OAATS, bring in the certificates, and for every 4 hours of certificate time get an AFTP. I think we've got a further cap on that. Not sure as I've never actually used them. I live 10 miles from my facility right now, so there's no point in not just going in; lets me get other stuff done as well.

 

The short time I was actually employed outside of the facility (always temporary orders...) it was REALLY hard to get in to fly. You need an incredibly flexible employer. Realistically the only (employed) guys we get to regularly come in are law enforcement, fire fighters, and those that have some good job security. Your average 9-5 is brutal to get time to go fly, and it only gets worse if you're not near your facility.

 

My personal advice, that you didn't ask for: if you're going to be in the guard anyway, if there's an AGR or Technician (esp tech) job open, take it if you can get it. You get the benefits of GS12/GS13 pay with the same downside of possible deployment as any other M-Day soldier. As far as voluntarily leaving active duty to go guard? I wouldn't. The biggest thing making me want to get out right now is the knowledge that even if I do another 9 years (I'm at 11 like yourself), I can't collect until I'm 60*. That's pretty brutal considering how much of my 11 years has been active duty. I'm not really at a place where I can go active and make up that time, and get a real retirement out of it, though... Things I regret not doing when I was younger, I guess.

 

 

 

*that age of 60 to collect a Guard retirement is reduced by the time you've been activated for deployments, but I think it's only Guard deployments since that went into effect a few years ago.

[UH60L-IP]

Great information, thanks.

 

It's really good to have that info for planning. I can't say that I'm necessarily trying to get out in a couple of years - only that the ways things look right now it may not be an option for a lot of people, myself included. We'll cross that bridge when we get there but I'm a planner, so I like to know what lies ahead regardless of which path I take.

 

And for the record, I would have one of those flexible schedule jobs if I went back to civilian work. I was a cop before I came in and I would have the option of going back if I were to get out and not become a AGR/tech warrant.

[Yamer]

That's probably more accurate. I ball parked mid twenties to illustrate a number. In our conversation he said 20k's.

[Yamer]

By chance does your agency have an air unit? That would be awesome to walk back into...

[Justine]

I thought 64 drivers are at 140 hours a year. I was told 40k a year right out of school as a 2LT

 

I have a friend who is Idaho's SP and he pulls in 120k plus a year, but also a cw4 and 25 years TIS. He might be GS 12/13

[CharyouTree]

I thought 64 drivers are at 140 hours a year. I was told 40k a year right out of school as a 2LT

 

I have a friend who is Idaho's SP and he pulls in 120k plus a year, but also a cw4 and 25 years TIS. He might be GS 12/13

 

ok... Doing more research.

 

Semi-annual minimum flying hour requirements for AH-64D is 70 hours, totaling 140 annually.

 

However, DODI 1215.06, Change 2 (Dec 24, 2008) para 6.1.2.6.3.2 says that the maximum number of AFTPs annually will not exceed 72 each fiscal year, unless specifically authorized by the <Secretary of the Army>. The Secretary can increase it to a maximum of 96 for an individual based on their need to perform RMPs (Readiness management periods... basically, for unit readiness, not for use for individual flying hours.)

 

So, unless there's another change out that's not listed anywhere I could find, 72 is max AFTPs, and if you've got 44 more hours to complete annually than a FAC1 H-60 pilot, you should get cracking. ...I can also understand why they might want to pull the -64's from the Guard, with that kind of FHP.

 

 

Also, yes, our guys are pulling more than 100K as new technician hires, once they add in some AFTPs and drill. It's a lot easier here with the high locality pay, though.

Edited March 7, 2014 by CharyouTree

[Justine]

The cost of maintaining a Guard 64 unit is less than half of its Active counterparts. Cost is not the issue. Regardless, we need to maintain the same minimum requirements as RA. Apaches just require more time in the air to do so.

[CharyouTree]

The cost of maintaining a Guard 64 unit is less than half of its Active counterparts. Cost is not the issue. Regardless, we need to maintain the same minimum requirements as RA. Apaches just require more time in the air to do so.

 

I'm well aware that we have the same minimums, and CONUS, we will actually tend to fly more. (For what it's worth, I think it's practically a crime that we have to do the same amount of "flight" work, but get a measly portion of the flight pay that goes with it.)

 

How is a Guard unit half the cost of an Active one?

[Justine]

Its actually even less, and why would it? The whole point of NG/reserve is to provide a cost effective alternative to RA, backups and resupply if needed, at a lower operating cost for troops and equipment than maintaining those forces on a RA status.

 

Kick my soap box out from under me. I get a little heated over our military and states rights.

[CharyouTree]

Its actually even less, and why would it? The whole point of NG/reserve is to provide a cost effective alternative to RA, backups and resupply if needed, at a lower operating cost for troops and equipment than maintaining those forces on a RA status.

 

Kick my soap box out from under me. I get a little heated over our military and states rights.

 

Look, I don't disagree with you, in theory. But in Army Aviation, we live by proof, so prove it. Because I don't know where your numbers are coming from, and the only place I can see them coming from is personnel accounting. Not to be confused with personal accountability. Badum tish... anyway....

 

Let's say you have a flight facility that services Apaches. They need to put them up for the same availability as an equal active duty unit. (X airframes support Y crews at 140 annual hours per aviator.) There's nothing saved on parts, fuel, etc. It costs a certain amount per flight hour, and you can't really change that.

 

You do however, save money where people (part timers, not AGR or techs) are only coming in on the days that they're actually flying, or planning on it, so you're only paying them for days they're working, but I don't see half the cost or better that way.

 

The reason I say it's cheaper for a different airframe, is if a FAC 1 aviator flies 96 hours in a Blackhawk, but 140 hours in an Apache.... that's 44 hours at (using a Hawk's numbers) 5K/hour/<crew>. It's going to cost "the Government" the same whether those airframes are on the state or federal side, but they can get away with giving less money to a state with Blackhawks than one with Apaches.

 

If we're talking state missions? What exactly is an Apache going to do when there's a hurricane, tornado, whatever it is that the Governor calls on the Guard for? ...To clarify, what exactly is that Apache going to do that a MUCH less expensive -58 or Lakota can't do? Or a Blackhawk can't, for that matter? Strategically speaking, I think the idea of getting rid of an element of your "reserve" is a little whacko, but hey...we've done crazier things.

Edited March 7, 2014 by CharyouTree

[UH60L-IP]

By chance does your agency have an air unit? That would be awesome to walk back into...

 

 

That could inadvertently get me into a long rant. I am generally not a fan of police helicopters. I think they are a mega huge waste of taxpayer funds. Very few agencies can justify a helicopter (at least for patrol) - LA, Phoenix, Chicago, Border Patrol, etc. Unfortunately, many many more agencies have them and they are ultimately a taxpayer funded flying club that does little for the patrolman on the ground.

 

Unless I went to one of those agencies, if I returned to law enforcement I would just be a cop and fly Guard during the off time.

 

Back on topic, I am surprised at some of the numbers that are being thrown out there about the potential income of Reserve/Guard pilots. I was basically interested for two reasons - if I do leave active duty for whatever reason I want my time to mean at least something in terms of retirement, and secondly, it would be nice if the income fills the gap between what I currently make on active duty and what I would make in a civilian job in the event it is a pay cut of sorts. It sounds like a Reserve/Guard job would easily fill an income gap.

[CharyouTree]

It can be pretty good, but you really do need to do all of your aftps. That's where the majority of the money is coming from (if you're authorized the maximum).

[Joe_P148]

What does a Guard Unit need with Apaches exactly? It is it so the states have some kind of bargaining chip if they want to succeed from the union?

 

And don't say it is to offer a low cost alternative because those units require activation and extensive train up at a SRP site before they can be mobilized.

[Justine]

Proof:

Beyond that, because of the full-time nature of the Army and part-time nature of the Guard, it would cost the Army about $76.8 million a year to run one Apache unit, as opposed to the $31.8 million a year it costs the Guard for the same, said Chief Warrant Officer Ken Jones, a pilot instructor for the Utah Guard. Jones also pointed out that in the past five years, active-duty pilots have caused 10 crashes that destroyed the helicopter, as opposed to the National Guard’s clean record for the same timeframe. Apaches cost about $30 million each.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57389909-78/guard-army-apaches-burton.html.csp

Its just the internet, but, hell, so is this forum....

[Justine]

What does a Guard Unit need with Apaches exactly? It is it so the states have some kind of bargaining chip if they want to succeed from the union?

 

And don't say it is to offer a low cost alternative because those units require activation and extensive train up at a SRP site before they can be mobilized.

For the same reason we maintain other forms of combat arms in the reserves/NG. Its is highly cost effective to have a reserve heavy army, especially in peacetime . Not to mention our right to have a state militia, not like we had a revolution in part because of that. I know that states will use the FLIR for search and rescue, especially in areas with rugged, mountainous terrain.

 

I'm done here, you can never have everyone happy on the subject of politics. Back on topic...

[akscott60]

I would join the guard tmw if I could. The army should have a program to integrate in the reserve or guard from active duty. Not the old "passed over twice and I am gone" program.

[rob.]

How does that work? If I wanted to join the guard after the 6 year ADSO. I guess I would have to talk to an NG recruiter.

[akscott60]

I dont know how it works yet, but I have already started to network.

[UH60L-IP]

How does that work? If I wanted to join the Guard after the 6 year ADSO. I guess I would have to talk to an NG recruiter.

 

 

I have wondered the same thing. Any input from guys that have gone active to Guard would be appreciated.

 

I haven't been passed over once, much less twice, but with the shrinking Army let's say I am. Am I shooting myself in the foot if I wait until I am passed over twice before looking for a Guard unit. Is one better off making the decision to go Guard in advance, even if it means turning down the next rank, to ensure a Guard slot?

[Fliesbecauseracecar]

They are going to look at your resume (OERs and ORBs) and make a decision. Good friend of mine was a two time passover and got a job flying civilian medevac and signed on with the guard and got an aircraft transition to boot as part of going guard.

 

A lot will probably depend on why you got passed over and as such, won't really matter if you do it before or after your promotion boards, since the reason(s) for being passed over will be present in your OMPF anyway. If it's just because it's a very competitive board, I wouldn't sweat that too much. If it's because you have a DUI, I wouldn't count on it.