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MurderedOutTaco

Is getting a commercial in an R44 worth an extra $5K over a 22?

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I was talking to a pilot lately who recommended that I try to do my commercial training in a 44 rather than a 22 if I can afford it. I can't really afford any training, but I'm doing it anyway, so what's another $5K? :rolleyes:

 

My flight school does 44's by collective time and 22's by hobbs time, so for flights in the 1.2 to 1.3 range the price difference over the course of a "normal" commercial course is about $5K all told. Is it worth the extra cost? Will it be a significant feather in my cap?

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Depends what your overall ambition is once you complete training. If you do all of your time in a 44 my understanding is that you'll still have to do hours of 22 time if you want to teach in that if CFI is your goal (Robbie guys please correct me if I am wrong if that's not correct, I think its 20 or 50 in a 22? I did my training in an Enstrom) I could be completely off and 44 time is sufficient, but someone who's Robbie trained will square you away. You might reply with what you goal is out of training.

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I'd definitely get some training in the 44, enough to be able to teach and get your sign off. I don't think its worth doing all of it in the 44.

 

But that's just me. I loved flying the 44, if I had money to burn then I would have done more.

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Since Robinson is the only manufacturer per a Special FAR that requires more hours than the FAA requires in their regular FAR (5 hours IIRC) I would get qualified to be a CFI in the 22 and 44. Don't forget that if you have the hours and PIC endorsement you do not have to pay for two CFI rides - one in the 22 and one in the 44 - if you schedule the Robinson factory course after your CFI R22 check ride and then utilize the 44 at the factory school they will give you an endorsement to teach in the R44 so that may save you some money. Lastly, keep in mind the R44 is the most popular helicopter in the world, so PIC and CFI endorsements in the 44 could come in handy.

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Check with your chief pilot as well as ask the CFIs at your school to see if any of them were hired with just R22 time, then transitioned into the R44 when needed on the companies dime. Perhaps they will let you fly tours/photos in the R44 with just 5hrs and the PIC endorsement, until you build the time needed to teach? If not then you'll just have to bite the bullet and pay for all 25. Although you only need to pay for 24hrs at your school, if you go to the RHC course in the R44 to get your CFI endorsement, because you'll get 1hr there.

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I did a bunch of my instrument, including my instrument checkride in the 44. Much easier to fly than the 22

So you skated and took the easy road..... Got it.

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Get 25 hours in r44. It will make you legal to teach wich will be very worth it in case you don't get hired at the school you work at. More then 25 hrs is just extra. It's fun but not necessary. Right now the idea is to get the most qualified to get hired later on. Whether you don't get hired or the school goes out of business, you never know. Get Inst, cfi/cfii certs, if training in robbies, be eligible to teach both. Go to rhc course even if your school's insurance doesn't require it. Also get some night time while you can. It'll help even farther down the road. I suggest doing you instrument at night.

 

You never know what will happen. You may have plans to work somewhere but things fall through. On the other side you may fall into something else by chance. After training your only experience is your training. These are the most effective things to put on your resume. Be qualified for plan b, c, etc or be eligible for that surprise gig.

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So you skated and took the easy road..... Got it.

Absolutely. Even did my ATP in it instead of doing it in a more complicated aircraft! Made the ground super easy

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the price difference over the course of a "normal" commercial course is about $5K all told

 

Erm.

So on average a private will get you to 50 hrs.

Let's say you flew around taking the girlfriend/wive/whatever for fun flights for another 10 hrs.

Your IFR rating would have gotten you another 20 hrs.

That's around 80 hrs.

So for your commercial you're going to need another 70 hrs, right?

Typically a R44 costs around double that of a R22.

Let's use numbers I'm used to, say $530 vs. $270.

For 70 hrs that's a difference of almost $20K.

Curious about two things:

How is the price difference over a "normal commercial course" only $5k?

Unless you only have like 15 hrs left to get to your 150 hrs - but then that's hardly a "normal commercial course".

Since you mentioned it, what is a "normal commercial course".

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Commercial only requires 20hrs of training. Any time remaining to 150 can be done solo and in an r22, or a Cessna 172 for that matter. At your numbers that's a difference of $5200.

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Part 61 Instrument rating=

 

 

(2) Forty hours of actual or simulated instrument time in the areas of operation listed under paragraph © of this section, of which 15 hours must have been with an authorized instructor who holds an instrument-helicopter rating, and the instrument time includes:

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Part 61 Instrument rating=

 

 

(2) Forty hours of actual or simulated instrument time in the areas of operation listed under paragraph © of this section, of which 15 hours must have been with an authorized instructor who holds an instrument-helicopter rating, and the instrument time includes:

 

If you're going to quote regs, at least read the whole reg.

So we're looking at 61.65....and it's always polite to also quote the reg index ;)

And then we continue down to (h) Use of flight simulators or flight training devices...

(2) A maximum of 20 hours may be performed in that flight simulator ....yadayadayada

 

Which means you only have to fly 20, or wait. Are you one of those unfortunate ones who actually spent 40 flying hours worth of cash?

/giggles

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Commercial only requires 20hrs of training. Any time remaining to 150 can be done solo and in an r22, or a Cessna 172 for that matter. At your numbers that's a difference of $5200.

 

I was interested in the definition of a normal commercial course, I was expecting the response to be the minimum requirement, so I'll give you the same response that I would have given then.

 

If you're flying on a budget and plan to do as much soloing as you can, you're most likely denying yourself a whole bunch of very valuable training. Many students gain very little from a ton of soloing when doing commercial. Given everyone is different, and I'm generalizing, sure. Why not spend the extra money and get as much training you can get until you get to 150 total time?

In my experience, for many students, soloing is good for some things, but great for learning bad habits.

Why not minimize the time you're soloing? It gets lonely up there and your flight school is most likely going to restrict you from doing a whole bunch of stuff like emergency procedures, offsite work, long cross countries, flying in Bravo etc. anyway.

This is your opportunity to do all sorts of stuff e.g. spend as much time in Bravo airspace as you can; ask instructors to teach you what happens during a photo flight; go fly with different instructors, go fly as much night time as you can, you should learn something from every instructor.

Use the time constructively and maximize what you learn.

And we're back to it costing a tad more than $5k.

But it should be money well spent.

Win :)

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True you don't have to spend all that time soloing (although I enjoyed it) you can even start cfi training so that the day after you take your commercial check ride you can take your CFI ride. However there's nothing in the regs that says all that time must be flown in the same model. And now we're back to $5200!

 

By the way I spent much of my solo time in bravo, and at night, whoopie :). Besides once you're a working CFI there's not much time (or money) to solo, so take advantage of it when you can.

 

So in conclusion a "normal" commercial course is 20hrs dual. You can chose to do additional stuff, but that's totally up to the individual student.

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Not to hijack the thread, but when I instructed, we would often do XC flights to fun places with students. On those flights it was dual time, but the school only billed the students the solo rate because it was mutually benefitial to both student and instructor.

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I've actually been told that before. Don't do all of your training with one instructor because you will limit what you learn to that one particular instructor's style of teaching. Sounds like some really good advice to me. Now let me go ahead and say it. The rest of this post is going to be poor speculation due to the fact that I have pretty much no helicopter experience. If I am wrong here, one of you more experienced guys, please jump in and set me straight. I think that I would rather take as many hours of time with an instructor as I could. I feel that I would learn more that way, and what I really want to leave flight school with is experience, not just hours. That having been said, I do realize that I will not be employable when I leave flight school, other than as a CFI. But if this time is paid for anyway, might as well get every bit of experience I can out of it, right?

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I've actually been told that before. Don't do all of your training with one instructor because you will limit what you learn to that one particular instructor's style of teaching....

I think that I would rather take as many hours of time with an instructor as I could. I feel that I would learn more that way, and what I really want to leave flight school with is experience, not just hours. That having been said, I do realize that I will not be employable when I leave flight school, other than as a CFI. But if this time is paid for anyway, might as well get every bit of experience I can out of it, right?

 

Absolutely! Good for you.

From my own experience as a student, and as an instructor, the way to go is to have one primary instructor who is also most likely going to be the one endorsing you.

And then in addition to that you should fly with as many other instructors as you can manage.

Your primary should have no problem with you flying with other instructors, else you might have reason for concern.

Also, it's when you get exposed to multiple instructors that you quickly figure out what really works for you and how well a particular teaching/learning style works for you.

And how good or bad some instructors are!

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