Pilot Time

[jjsemperfi]

Quick question about logging flight time. AIM says Flight Time means: (1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purposes of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing" ; or glider stuff... So when we log flight time say in a Schweizer and the hobs starts ticking when the Main Rotor Tranny Temp and Pressure Light goes out, the AC isn't moving. The Robby's hobs being collective activated makes more sense, but the industry logs a .2 over on those flights. Comments?

[eagle5]

Some pilots log skids up to skids down as per the R44 hobbs. Some pilots log engine on to engine off as per the R22 hobbs. It all depends on what your interpretation of the helicopter moving under its own power for the purpose of flight is? As soon as the blades are spinning its moving, or its not really moving until you pick it up to a hover?

 

This was debated to death a while ago, if you can find the old thread?

[jjsemperfi]

Ok thanks, I'll have to find that thread. Seems to me that the revenue hobs is what the pilot should log. If the aircraft is being charged, the pilot should be logging.

[HeliNomad]

OMG...I can feel the earth shaking...I think you have hit a pilot opinion nerve!

[Velocity173]

There shouldn't be much of a dispute on the matter. To say the movement of the rotor blades constitutes flight time is ridiculous. That's why a lot of helicopters utilize a weight on gear switch for the hobbs. It's indicates actual flight time. The FAA addressed this issue with FW years ago. It's quite clear they consider the logging of time by moving under its own power for the purpose of flight as being taxiing and not the movement of engine parts.

 

j.johnson - (2000) legal interpretation.pdf

Edited April 28, 2014 by Velocity173

[Flying Pig]

Please silence your cell phones

[jjsemperfi]

I agree that it should be take off to landing. Taxing isn't flying. Funny it isn't a reg though.

[Velocity173]

I agree that it should be take off to landing. Taxing isn't flying. Funny it isn't a reg though.

Oh the FAA considers taxiing flying. Legal to log it.

 

I've read on some fixed wing forums, some guys will log taxi time as flight time, even if they never got airborne. They think if they had the intent to fly but had a maint issue and taxied back, that still counts as logging flight time. Now that's a stretch of the definition.

[aeroscout]

Oh the FAA considers taxiing flying. Legal to log it.

 

I've read on some fixed wing forums, some guys will log taxi time as flight time, even if they never got airborne. They think if they had the intent to fly but had a maint issue and taxied back, that still counts as logging flight time. Now that's a stretch of the definition.

Intent is important in determining enforcement action. If you can get in trouble for it, you should be able to log it, that's my opinion, but it also fits the definition of flight time.

Fudging the logbook was the thread in question.

 

If you work it right you can legitimately and legally log almost all the time the engine is turning.

[Flying Pig]

When I was working on my FW ratings, I had a situation where I taxi'd out and started my take-off roll and had a massive engine backfire. Sounded like I was hitting a hot LZ in the 'Nam. I chopped the throttle, taxied off and went back to the FBO and never got airborne.

 

The school told me that if I wanted to log the .3 and have it credited towards my training records I would be billed for it. If I didnt log it, they wouldn't charge me.

[adam32]

There shouldn't be much of a dispute on the matter. To say the movement of the rotor blades constitutes flight time is ridiculous. That's why a lot of helicopters utilize a weight on gear switch for the hobbs. It's indicates actual flight time. The FAA addressed this issue with FW years ago. It's quite clear they consider the logging of time by moving under its own power for the purpose of flight as being taxiing and not the movement of engine parts.

 

j.johnson - (2000) legal interpretation.pdf

 

The gear switch Hobbs is usually for maintenance. Oil pressure Hobbs for billing and logging. There's no reg that states a helicopter even needs a Hobbs.

 

If you are in control of the aircraft, and can get in trouble if something were to happen, then LOG THE TIME!

 

If someone is so worried about a few tenths here and there then get a stop watch and stop it every time the skids hit the ground.

[eagle5]

Helicopters aren't airplanes so I wouldn't look to an FAA decision in FW for an answer. As for the collective/skid activated hobbs, my old boss said, that's there because clients don't want to be billed for the time a helicopter sits on the ground, not because anyone cares how pilots log their time.

 

Some food for thought. Say you're flying Tours in a 44 (collective hobbs). You spend all day sitting in it with the blades turning making 5, 10, 15 minute trips while they hot load you after each one, and hot fuel you periodically. All that ground time with the blades spinning under engine power can easily add up to a half hour, maybe even an hour a day. 5 days a week, 4 weeks a month in 6 months that could be 60+ hours! Easily the difference between getting to 1000 at the end of this year and the possibility of a turbine job next year, or missing the hiring season and spending another year sleeping in your car, or sharing a 2 bedroom apartment with 5 other low timers while they pay you beans. So you might want to log it?

 

The school told me that if I wanted to log the .3 and have it credited towards my training records I would be billed for it. If I didnt log it, they wouldn't charge me.

 

 

My school said the same thing to me after I aborted a flight due to a maintenance issue. Seems to be a connection between wallets and logbooks?

[Velocity173]

 

The gear switch Hobbs is usually for maintenance. Oil pressure Hobbs for billing and logging. There's no reg that states a helicopter even needs a Hobbs.

 

If you are in control of the aircraft, and can get in trouble if something were to happen, then LOG THE TIME!

 

If someone is so worried about a few tenths here and there then get a stop watch and stop it every time the skids hit the ground.

 

I realize it's for maintenance but it also gives an accurate indication of flight time by what I believe the definition to be. Unless you're under the impression flight time starts when things start spinning, then it wouldn't be accurate for your log books.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Velocity173

[adam32]

 

I realize it's for maintenance but it also gives an accurate indication of flight time by what I believe the definition to be. Unless you're under the impression flight time starts when things start spinning, then it wouldn't be accurate for your log books.

 

I'm under the impression that if you can get into trouble as PIC, then you better be logging PIC time when it happens.

[Velocity173]

 

I'm under the impression that if you can get into trouble as PIC, then you better be logging PIC time when it happens.

I could get into trouble as a PIC by sitting in the pilot's seat and never hitting the starter. That doesn't mean I'm logging it.

[Flying Pig]

You mean like naked selfies on company time sorta trouble?

[Velocity173]

You mean like naked selfies on company time sorta trouble?

 

No, as far as the FAA is concerned, naked selfies are fine. I think it's even allowed within our personnel policies manual as long as no visible tattoos are showing.

 

I was thinking more along the lines of getting ramp checked with no medical, not doing preflight IAW the RFM, no current GOM in the aircraft etc.

[Pohi]

Imho, you aren't breaking the regs on any of those things until you hit the starter button, because until you try to fly you haven't violated anything. Otherwise a mechanic sitting in a helicopter who does a runup, or any random person sitting in the seat would be screwed.

[adam32]

Imho, you aren't breaking the regs on any of those things until you hit the starter button, because until you try to fly you haven't violated anything. Otherwise a mechanic sitting in a helicopter who does a runup, or any random person sitting in the seat would be screwed.

 

Exactly, not a single reg would be broken in his scenario until the blades are turning and if so you better be logging your time.

[Nearly Retired]

Yes, this has been debated to death, and I'm still surprised how emotional some pilots get over it!

 

I guess we must primarily ask ourselves: What is the intent of the pilot flight time rule? Apparently, for fixed-wing pilots, once their engine is started and the plane is underway, the pilot is pilot-in-commanding and can log it as such. Fixed-wing pilots refer to this as "block time," a foreign term unknown to most helicopter pilots.

 

Yes, as unbelievable as it sounds, the FAA *does* allow fixed-wing pilots to log TAXI time as pilot FLIGHT time as long as the taxiing is done with the intent to go flying, or move the aircraft to parking after landing. In this way, an airplane pilot logs *more* pilot flight time than the aircraft accumulates (because even an airplane doesn't start accumulating what we would call "component time" until the wheels are off the ground).

 

I would surmise that some helicopter pilots find this f/w practice repugnant and reprehensible and would consider that any f/w pilot who does so is a low-down, lying, cheating scumbag. Because that's NOT the way we do things in the helicopter world, HARUMPH!

 

However, the FAA has decreed for helicopters "flight time" means "skids off the ground to skids back on the ground." But the person who issued that opinion was one Rebecca Whatserface, a chick FAA lawyer who probably is not even a pilot and doesn't know squat about helicopters. (And what little she does know about helicopters is probably wrong.)

Okay Bob, what should she know?

 

Well, for one thing the rotor blades of a helicopter are an AIRFRAME part. They're not analogous to propellors; they ARE the airframe. And personally, I disagree with the dumb FAA laywer chick. I believe that if the airFRAME is moving then the airCRAFT can be considered to be moving (because an idling helicopter poses certain risks to bystanders and, not unimportantly, itself...AND even an idling helicopter already has "flying speed" in its wings and can lift off at any time). So this stance is logical, no? I don't think it is "ridiculous." But obviously, not everyone agrees. Idiots and morons disagree and state opinions to the contrary. But that's okay, everybody is entitled to their weak opinion, even an idiot/moron like me. And I fly both airplanes *and* helicopters, so I log flight time two different ways.

 

My take? Nobody cares; log what you want. If you just want to log "skids-up to skids-down," go for it. If you want to log "blade time" as pilot flight time, go right ahead.

 

Ironically, after a career of flying skid-equipped helicopters I now find myself flying a Sikorsky S-55, which has wheels. And now, every time I start it up, I immediately engage the rotor and taxi forward six inches while waiting the one-tenth or so for the big, round engine to warm up. BINGO! I have now moved under my own power with the intention of flight. AND I'M LOGGING THAT AS FLIGHT TIME, BABY! I should be one of the highest time S-55 pilots in the country soon. And won't that come in handy when an opening comes up for a qualified and experienced S-55 pilot ;-)

[Velocity173]

Well I'll retract the word ridiculous from my statement. I don't want to offend anyone's interpretation of logging flight time. It's just not the way I do it. I get a printout at the end of the month from the company and it uses the WOG for Hobbs time. My log book reflects that printout. I have no need to add a .1 here and there to get a job.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Velocity173

[Pohi]

...I get a printout at the end of the month from the company and it uses the WOG for Hobbs time. My log book reflects that printout.

Out of pure laziness I do the same thing. The printout is created by starting the clock before takeoff and stopping it after landing. Taking into consideration the passenger loading, unloading, and the dreaded "sit and spin", there is at least an hour or two a day difference in engine time and collective time. But, that's all part of the production game, on the next contract I go for I'll shoot for one with a few dozen less flights per day.

 

Edit: For the record, I'm not saying you are lazy, I'm just admitting that I am

Edited April 28, 2014 by Pohi

[helipilotm]

I had our POI tell me a few years ago he is ok with adding a couple tenths if let's say your doing tours and hot loading. If I'm just doing regular flights with no hot loading I don't worry about.

[aeroscout]

Real men log pad time. Pot meet stirrer.

[adam32]

I know people that log pre flight time...