Complete rookie questions

[JohnLeePettimore]

After lurking for a while with an occasional post, I have soaked up quite a lot of info that really won't apply to me for a few years, but I am definitely glad for it, as there is no such thing as having too much information. But this has left me with a couple of questions that have been on my mind that I am hoping some of you experienced pilots could answer for me.

The school that I am attending this fall (just got my acceptance letter from Wallace State) uses the S300. Will this make much of a difference in my marketability when i get my CFI? It is my understanding that most helicopter flight schools use R22s, and I have read that there is a specific requirement to fly in a RHC. When I did my first lesson, my flight instructor have me a sticker for my log book that states that I have received Robinson safety training. Is this actually something that would allow me to fly a Robinson in the future, or would I have to still attend a specific Robinson program?

My next question more to satisfy a personal curiosity. From what I have been reading here, the AStar has a reverse MR direction from the American helicopters, so you have to give opposite anti-torque pedal than you would in, say, a JR or an R44. Does that get confusing or is it something your muscle memory just picks up as soon as you get light on the skids and feel which way the helicopter wants to turn?

As usual, any information is greatly appreciated.

[bqmassey]

The school that I am attending this fall (just got my acceptance letter from Wallace State) uses the S300. Will this make much of a difference in my marketability when i get my CFI?

 

Yes, a huge difference. By flying at a school with 300's, you will be more marketable for a school that flies exclusively 300s, and less marketable for a school that flies exclusively Robinsons. (Sorry if this sounds obvious, but it may not be for someone new to the industry.)

 

CFI/CFII slots are already competitive. Not having experience in the aircraft a potential employer uses is an easy way to get your resume sent to the back of the line. It's up to you to choose which aircraft you'd like to be a marketable CFI for.

When I did my first lesson, my flight instructor have me a sticker for my log book that states that I have received Robinson safety training. Is this actually something that would allow me to fly a Robinson in the future, or would I have to still attend a specific Robinson program?

The sticker just serves as a record that they fulfilled the requirement to discuss with you a few characteristics/hazards of the R22 before you flew it. It's nothing that will help you career-wise.

In addition to that requirement, there are also requirements to be pilot-in-command and teach in R22/R44's. These requirements are outlined in "SFAR 73", a federal regulation specific to the R22 and R44, and require you have a certain amount of hours in R22/R44s. There is no such requirement for the 300.

I've flown both R22's and 300's. They're quite different, but they're both fun. Some schools use Enstroms, too. You can learn to fly just fine in any of them. As far as career goes, though, the school you train at (hence the aircraft you fly) will definitely be a force that steers your career for the first job or two. It's good you're thinking about it now.

[aeroscout]

About the foreign helos with the rotors that turn the wrong way, I only notice a big difference when getting it light on the skids. With American helos, it's a good boot full of left pedal. With the foreign helos it's a good boot full of right pedal, assuming no wind in both cases.

Hovering autos seem like they would mess you up, but you can catch drift tendencies so quickly that it's not much of a difference. The yaw isn't either. It's just a matter of enough pedal to keep the nose pointing where it started.

On straight in autos I also experienced a notable difference. But with a little practice that smooths out fairly quickly.

[JohnLeePettimore]

Thanks guys. Much appreciated.

[cburg]

The Rotorway turns CW like the Euros. There have been many experienced heli guys roll them. Just happened last month. A 2000 hour CFI rolled a brand new Talon. It's not the machine's fault...strictly pilot error...in these cases.

 

I'm told by RW CFIs that they have many problems with negative transfer from CCW to CW machines.

 

To me it's like a trike (push-right-go-left) compared to anything else (push-right-go-right). At first it's a major transition issue, but once it's wired into your brain it’s a non-issue.

[supergokougt]

I had 100 hours in each manufacturer. 25 in r44, ~75 in R22 and then 100 in the 300.

 

It gave me lots of options.

 

Good luck!

[heligirl03]

The only pedal problem I really had when transitioning folks to Eurocopter products was in the first couple of autos. If people would just fly the aircraft (sounds easy enough, right?? Eyes outside, nose goes left-you push right, nose goes right-you push left) it was fine, but if they were already psyching themselves out then primacy would kick in and they'd stomp a boot full of right pedal on entry. Fun. After a few thousand hours in Eurocopter I bumped over to primarily Agusta products, also foreign but back to CW rotation. The biggest thing I noticed switching amongst all of them wasn't really the direction of pedal input but rather the differences in TR rigging and effectiveness and developing a smooth control touch for each airframe (how much input and when). Don't be in a big rush to do anything; just take your time, feel it out, it's still a helicopter...smile and fly it.

[Astro]

If your school doesn't hire you as a cfi in the s300 you will find yourself in competition with alot of other cfis, so you may need r22 time to find work?

 

To work in an r22 you will need (in addition to that awarness training sticker you already have);

 

- 200hrs total fime in helicopters

- 50hrs in the r22

- a pic endorsement

- a cfi endorsement

- a certificate showing that you attended the 4-day safety course at the robinson factory in Torrance

 

The good news is that you only need 150hrs to work in that s300, so I hope they hire you afterwards.

[Spike]

It’s worth noting; you won’t find S300 applicants being considered to R22/44 spots without meeting the SFAR (meaning a significant amount of time in the Robinson products). You will find R22/44 pilots being considered for S300 jobs with minimal time in the S300…….

 

If you want to posture yourself to be marketable to the widest range of prospective employers, you’ll need to meet the Robinson SFAR requirements and have S300 time (more than 5 hours as this is the minimum requirement to teach with the exception of the R22/44) while achieving CFII certificates and ratings…..

 

With the 350, as already (somewhat) stated, after some time in different types of airframes, your brain will automatically compensate for the differences. Consequently, with all machines, yaw is controlled with the pedals in the same manner regardless of the direction the rotor system turns......

[Wally]

After lurking for a while with an occasional post, I have soaked up quite a lot of info that really won't apply to me for a few years, but I am definitely glad for it, as there is no such thing as having too much information. But this has left me with a couple of questions that have been on my mind that I am hoping some of you experienced pilots could answer for me.

The school that I am attending this fall (just got my acceptance letter from Wallace State) uses the S300. Will this make much of a difference in my marketability when i get my CFI? It is my understanding that most helicopter flight schools use R22s, and I have read that there is a specific requirement to fly in a RHC. When I did my first lesson, my flight instructor have me a sticker for my log book that states that I have received Robinson safety training. Is this actually something that would allow me to fly a Robinson in the future, or would I have to still attend a specific Robinson program?

My next question more to satisfy a personal curiosity. From what I have been reading here, the AStar has a reverse MR direction from the American helicopters, so you have to give opposite anti-torque pedal than you would in, say, a JR or an R44. Does that get confusing or is it something your muscle memory just picks up as soon as you get light on the skids and feel which way the helicopter wants to turn?

As usual, any information is greatly appreciated.

 

I used to swap CW/CCW rotor airframes regularly in a 7-day hitch, often back and forth in a duty day. The pedals were never a problem after throttling up to flight when I might find myself applying left pedal instead of right going from ground to flight idle, or vice versa, on a slick deck. In flight, just push to get the nose where you want it.

Cyclic was more embarrassing. The previous airframe might lift right side first, left side first, skid toes first or heel first. No matter how slow I did it, often breaking ground would result in an excursion quickly and wobble-ly corrected. Big eyes in the passenger seats. Some helicopters also seemed disproportionate in pitch and roll going back and forth- for example, the 206 is much quicker in roll than pitch after the 350.

Going twin to single, the passengers might see me waving my left arm vertically to find the throttles, which are not on the ceiling of a 206...

Edited May 1, 2014 by Wally

[JohnLeePettimore]

350 has the throttle in the ceiling? That must feel awkward the first time you grab the collective.

Do are there any additional ratings after CFI that involve some pretty extensive flight time that I could get in a Robbie or do I have to just suck it up and rent one to get the necessary time? After my 2 years of flight training at Wallace is up, I still have a year left that VA will pay for, and once I have my PPL I can use my benefits at any VA approved flight school. Any ideas?

[aeroscout]

350 has the throttle in the ceiling? That must feel awkward the first time you grab the collective.

I think he was talking about leftover muscle memory in a single after being in a twin.

[Astro]

Do are there any additional ratings after CFI that involve some pretty extensive flight time that I could get in a Robbie or do I have to just suck it up and rent one to get the necessary time? After my 2 years of flight training at Wallace is up, I still have a year left that VA will pay for, and once I have my PPL I can use my benefits at any VA approved flight school. Any ideas?

 

 

There's the instrument and cfii ratings. If those are already included in your s300 program, then there's Boatpix. They require 100hrs of "learning the contract" in an r22 mariner before they'll hire you to take pictures of boats. Not sure though if you could convince the VA to pay for it? Although they're paying for turbine/long lining so who knows?

[JohnLeePettimore]

The instrument rating is included, but not the CFII. I'm pretty sure that boatpix is not a VA approved flight training facility, and I don't have an extra $20k lying around for that.

[Spike]

The instrument rating is included, but not the CFII. I'm pretty sure that boatpix is not a VA approved flight training facility, and I don't have an extra $20k lying around for that.

 

You should read the regulations regarding the Robinson SFAR. You’ll need to meet this requirement to (again) be marketable to most entry-level CFII employers. With that said, it sounds like you’ll graduate with a Commercial Helicopter Certificate with the Instrument Rating. Correct? If so, you’ll need to find another VA approved flight school and get the Certified Fight Instructor Rating and the Instrument Instructor Rating in the R22/44. Once you achieve these additional certificates you should hit the 200 hour mark while meeting the SFAR and be good to go for the entry level job market….. However, be advised; you should do what you can to gain the commercial/instrument certification in the S300 at 150 hours…..

[Goldy]

You should probably read Heidi McBride's recent article........https://www.justhelicopters.com/HELIARTICLES/tabid/433/ID/15945/VA-Benefits-and-Helicopter-Training.aspx..

[cburg]

You should probably read Heidi McBride's recent article........https://www.justhelicopters.com/HELIARTICLES/tabid/433/ID/15945/VA-Benefits-and-Helicopter-Training.aspx..

It appears to be broken.

 

Try this (looks the same):

 

https://www.justhelicopters.com/HELIARTICLES/tabid/433/ID/15945/VA-Benefits-and-Helicopter-Training.aspx

[t002200]

I started out flying in the Robinson's and have over 100 hours in the R22. When my wife and I moved to another state, the school I started training at there had S300's. Even though I like the S300 more (more room, sits higher, more power), there are skills to be learned in both. It's hard flying 100+ hours in a helicopter with a RPM governor and then moving to a ship without one. As some of the others are saying, ship versatility is great to have and you should look for a school that uses ships you have experience in.

[cburg]

I started out flying in the Robinson's and have over 100 hours in the R22. When my wife and I moved to another state, the school I started training at there had S300's. Even though I like the S300 more (more room, sits higher, more power), there are skills to be learned in both. It's hard flying 100+ hours in a helicopter with a RPM governor and then moving to a ship without one. As some of the others are saying, ship versatility is great to have and you should look for a school that uses ships you have experience in.

Governors will sure spoil you. For my type flying I wish I would have trained in a 300 from the beginning. All mine was in a 22/44 and I was ill prepared to fly my Hughes...which I just got rid of. But...I fly just for fun.

[JohnLeePettimore]

Spike: I will graduate with my CFI and instrument rating. Unfortunately, they use a 300 as an instrument trainer, or it would be a lot easier on me. But I really can't complain. It's not like I'm going to end up with an $80k loan to pay back. So now I'm searching for a VA approved flight school that uses the R22 for my CFII. I've been looking around, but I haven't found any information about how many flight hours are required to go from CFI to CFII. I did like the governor on the R-22, but I think I'd rather do my initial training without it. Better to start off harder, right? Y'all have no idea how much I appreciate the insight I have gotten here.

[cburg]

I found the 22...MUCH...easier to fly than the 269/300...but I'll admit...I'm a lazy pilot.

 

But I do like the way the 269 with short blades maintains RRPMs in autos...that's easier...than the 22 IMO.

[Astro]

Funny, I'm just the opposite. I found the 300 to be easier to fly than the r22 but hated the way it was in an auto. Seemed like the r22 had more time to glide.

[cburg]

Funny, I'm just the opposite. I found the 300 to be easier to fly than the r22 but hated the way it was in an auto. Seemed like the r22 had more time to glide.

The 300 has diffent (longer) blades that the 269. I have very limited time in a 300 and never auto'd one. I'm fairly sure the two differ?

 

But the power recovery portion is cake in the 22.

 

In mine...any movement of anything required a throttle adjustment...what a PIA.

[Spike]

Spike: I will graduate with my CFI and instrument rating. Unfortunately, they use a 300 as an instrument trainer, or it would be a lot easier on me. But I really can't complain. It's not like I'm going to end up with an $80k loan to pay back. So now I'm searching for a VA approved flight school that uses the R22 for my CFII. I've been looking around, but I haven't found any information about how many flight hours are required to go from CFI to CFII. I did like the governor on the R-22, but I think I'd rather do my initial training without it. Better to start off harder, right? Y'all have no idea how much I appreciate the insight I have gotten here.

 

The problem you may run into is; you gain all of your certification without meeting the Robinson SFAR. If you do, it’s to my understanding; you may be left holding the bag to pay for the additional hours to meet the Robinson SFAR, which may be a significant out-of-pocket cost. Other folks can correct me if I’m wrong but, once you graduate (CFI) the VA considers you finished with your benefits. Any additional, “add-on’s” after course completion will be up to you. Therefore, if you graduate with your CFI and an instrument rating at 150 hours in an S300, you’ll need to pay for an additional 50 hours in an R22 with an additional 25 hours in an R44 which would be in the neighborhood of $20K. This is one of the drawbacks of utilizing a S300 for your initial training. However, if you get hired at the college when you graduate, which by-the-way should be your goal, then the R22/44 time is moot. Hopefully, the VA will consider the Instrument Instructor (add on) Rating as necessary training for career advancement. If they do, it should knock of some of the time (cost) but maybe not all of it. Worst case, you graduate without meeting the SFAR and cannot apply to 90% of the CFI jobs that come available. This is called helicopter purgatory and a place you don’t want to find yourself in……….

 

To maybe bring this home, I work in a major metropolitan area with 3 or 4 helicopter flight schools nearby. All of them utilize Robinson products. There is no S300 in my area available for training (you entrepreneurs/helicopter investors out there if you want to capitalize on this fact send me a PM and we’ll work something out). In short, you must fully understand how to get from “A” to “Z” and whether you like-it-or-not, this understanding should have started the day you decided to take on this endeavor……..

Edited May 2, 2014 by Spike

[JohnLeePettimore]

Actually, you are incorrect about one thing. They do not consider your flight training complete at CFI. If you have the money left over to spend, they will let you spend it on any ratings from aVA approved flight school. That being said, I can see that I have been given some great advice. Know that it is being heeded. I will graduate with 10 months left of my benefits. That will not pay for the Robinson factory course, but I can handle that. Actually, let me correct that statement. That does not include a PPL rating unless it is part of an IHL course.