PHOTOS - Unmanned Systems. Will they change us?

[AdminLB]

I attended the Unmanned Systems Conference in Orlando, FL yesterday. Very interesting. No shortage of rotorcraft there!

 

Once the FAA gets out of the way, this $82B industry will explode, create 100,000's of jobs and change the way some sectors of the helicopter industry do business. Are we ready?

 

PHOTOS HERE

[Astro]

How do we get qualified for these new jobs?

[avbug]

Upper second from the left, was that an unmanned helicycle?

[cburg]

 

How do we get qualified for these new jobs?

 

The time tested method is to be a big donor to the right politician.

[cburg]

Other great news...the City of Conroe just found their $300,000 drone which crashed and sank into lake Conroe last month. The report is "the FAA is still investigating the incident". I feel much better now. The jack-boots look good too. Who said we are becoming a police state... that's silly. But somebody has to lug around all that Gubment ammo.

 

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014...n-lake-conroe/

 

Note: It looks like it should cost about $5,000...not $300,000. Must have got it from the guys who make the toilet seats for the government. Tax dollars hard at work.

 

BTW you paid for it too...

 

"funded by Homeland Security Grants"

[aeroscout]

There were a total of 5 unmanned aircraft just today listed in 2 ARTCC's in the notams. Our privacy and rights are quickly diminishing.

I would think someone like Boatpix would be threatened financially.

[TomPPL]

Aeroscout, you are quite correct, there's no way I'd like to have any shares in Boatpix after seeing some of that lot..

[avbug]

Other great news...the City of Conroe just found their $300,000 drone which crashed and sank into lake Conroe last month. The report is "the FAA is still investigating the incident". I feel much better now. The jack-boots look good too. Who said we are becoming a police state... that's silly. But somebody has to lug around all that Gubment ammo.

 

 

Whereas the picture you posted has nothing to do with hauling ammunition, "gubment" or otherwise, and there's nothing associated with your reference that has anything to do with a "police state," don't you feel just a little silly with that unjustified ramble?

 

Don't answer that. It's rhetorical. You should.

 

ISR systems are expensive, and it's not the vehicle that tends to make it so. The vehicle is the most visible part, but it's the electronics that count; high magnification cameras, lasers, illumination, downlink, and everything on the ground to receive it, that adds up to a large share of the cost.

 

I flew missions in Iraq in which just the sensor package in one ball attached to the aircraft cost more than the aircraft, to say nothing of the rest of the package that was on the ground.

 

Perhaps you hate law enforcement in general, or have some other agenda. Surveillance is not an illegitimate act. Unmanned assets are here to stay. They have their limitations, and they have their advantages. Get over it.

[cburg]

 

Whereas the picture you posted has nothing to do with hauling ammunition, "gubment" or otherwise, and there's nothing associated with your reference that has anything to do with a "police state," don't you feel just a little silly with that unjustified ramble?

 

Don't answer that. It's rhetorical. You should.

 

ISR systems are expensive, and it's not the vehicle that tends to make it so. The vehicle is the most visible part, but it's the electronics that count; high magnification cameras, lasers, illumination, downlink, and everything on the ground to receive it, that adds up to a large share of the cost.

 

I flew missions in Iraq in which just the sensor package in one ball attached to the aircraft cost more than the aircraft, to say nothing of the rest of the package that was on the ground.

 

Perhaps you hate law enforcement in general, or have some other agenda. Surveillance is not an illegitimate act. Unmanned assets are here to stay. They have their limitations, and they have their advantages. Get over it.

Guess there's just some of us old timers who are not crazy about stuff like this...sounds like you are OK with it. That's great. We'll just have to disagree.

 

"at the height of the Iraq War the Army was expending less than 6 million rounds a month. Therefore 1.6 billion rounds would be enough to sustain a hot war for 20+ years. In America."

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ralphbenko/2013/03/11/1-6-billion-rounds-of-ammo-for-homeland-security-its-time-for-a-national-conversation/

 

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/ali-meyer/dhs-contracted-purchase-704-million-rounds-ammo-over-next-4-years-2500-rounds

 

As far as "hating law enforcement" your words, not mine...you jumped to the wrong conclusion. It's government overreach that I am expressing concerns with...and which is being manifested in many ways...including this IMO.. There is a difference...but perhaps you can't see it that way.

 

And thank you for your service...here's a recent post where I was on your side:

 

http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40620

[cburg]

I recall when I was ready to come home from working in (all over) China for 7 years , I told my wife that I bet I see more police in one hour after arriving back in the US than I saw in China in seven years. I was wrong…it only took 1/2 hour.

 

And I'm not saying they weren't needed...just an observation.

 

Yep, just checked it's almost three times more per-capita compared to the "Communists":

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_police_officers

[cburg]

And this should not be cause for concern:

 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/feb/7/coming-to-a-sky-near-you/

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/robert-johnson-bi-30000-drones-by-2020-2012-2

[cburg]

More good Drone news today (about a March 22 incident)...it wasn't a mid-air, only a near miss:

 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/09/travel/unmanned-drone-danger/

[cburg]

Here's the Drone Expo...six hours:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cti42eoRGi0&list=PLS2ntMaPm2ZUhXY2U87OcvUxRVxnu_y6O

[avbug]

I recall when I was ready to come home from working in (all over) China for 7 years , I told my wife that I bet I see more police in one hour after arriving back in the US than I saw in China in seven years. I was wrong…it only took 1/2 hour.

 

 

That wasn't my experience in China, or elsewhere, but to each his own.

 

Try waking up in Bahrain to tanks and gunfire. Or being made a prisoner in Equitorial Guinea. See how the law works in Jo-berg. Amsterdam after dark. Belfast. Bogota.

 

I don't see a l of goose stepping going on here, or jackbooted thugs. Perhaps you see what you want to see.

 

In the last decade I've been nearly everywhere on the planet. Everywhere but Antarctica, anyway. I haven't found anywhere I'd prefer to be than back in the USA. Again, perhaps in your travels to and stays in those places, you see it differently. I was in Pearl Circle in Bahrain. I was in Bagdhad. I was in Kabul and Kandahar. I was in Lagos, and in Nairobi. And yes, detained with my papers taken in Equitorial Guinea. I was in Liege, same square, same location as the grenade attack, and in so many locations where the freedoms taken for granted here are not only not expressed, but unsupported, nonexistent.

 

I've spent a great deal of time working up close and personal with unmanned systems. I don't like them. I've had numerous near-midairs with them, mostly at night, and could say quite a bit about them, but won't.

 

Yep, just checked it's almost three times more per-capita compared to the "Communists":

 

 

You didn't really just go there, did you? You did.

 

You're making a comparison with China, with its rampant human rights abuses to the United States, and trying to imply or suggest that we have a police state with jackbooted thugs running amok? You're using Wikipedia to make such a case? The Wiki numbers are seven years old for China, and don't include both police forces (PAP and CAPF). Add the CAPF and the numbers double. Add the People's Liberation Army, and your point is blown clear of the water.

 

Let's not forget that much of the presence in China isn't just a municipal police officer writing a ticket. The People's Republic has no possee comitatus or injunction against policing with the military, and in fact the military in China has it's fingers into a great deal of domestic action, including air traffic control (the transition of which is still underway, but largely done by military trained personnel). Half of the policing is paramilitary, above and beyond your old statistics.

 

If you're making a case for an orwellian state and you're concerned about the simple use of a UAV to conduct surveillance, you've been living in a cave.

 

"at the height of the Iraq War the Army was expending less than 6 million rounds a month. Therefore 1.6 billion rounds would be enough to sustain a hot war for 20+ years. In America."

 

 

 

What does ammunition have to do with the price of tea in China, and why on earth do you keep introducing references to ammunition? It's irrelevant. Such wild straw man irrelevancies. Why?

[cburg]

The thread title is:

 

"Unmanned Systems. Will they change us?"

 

My response is...I think so...because of the many examples of government overreach...mission creep... (history is replete with this…that’s what governments do). That's it. But no more examples from me...it's not worth arguing about and it apparently it really upsets you. 30 years from now I wonder if your views will be the same?

 

It's like religion and politics...sorry if you don't like the direction of the thread. Now…back to flying.

 

Having said that...like the space program, we are seeing many spin-off technological developments and there will continue to be significant advancements we will invariably benefit from. Plus like any pilot...I like new cool stuff.

[avbug]

A discussion doesn't upset me. Your introduction of wild, irrelevant points into a discussion to bolster up your political soapbox, however, is annoying. Twice with the ammunition references, after you referenced a small remote piloted helicopter that clearly is unarmed.

 

Whatever. You brought it up.

[Astro]

 

Try waking up in Bahrain to tanks and gunfire.

A buddy of mine knocked up a hooker in Bahrain. Proof positive that the pull-out method does not work! Still, if there's an unmanned job boom coming I'm interested, but have no idea how to get qualified, at least as a, civilian?

[aeroscout]

Who said...

 

"Perhaps you hate law enforcement in general, or have some other agenda. Surveillance is not an illegitimate act. Unmanned assets are here to stay. They have their limitations, and they have their advantages. Get over it."

 

I would like to take issue with Avbug on this quote. The part about surveillance not being illegitimate I hope I can do it diplomatically.

I don't disagree entirely, but many would react with a comparison to Orwell.

Have you read 1984 ?

 

I have major heartburn with red light cameras, streetlight cameras, and other surveillance that convicts without any process.

Anyone remember the scanners used by TSA that took naked pictures and were asserted to be not stored ?

Shortly after that knowingly false assertion, stockpiles of saved naked pictures of otherwise innocent passengers were discovered.

Drones have the most potential to date for massive abuse of our liberties and our privacy.

[Velocity173]

It's not about invading privacy and spying on innocent individuals. These unmanned systems will be replacing manned roles. Just on TV the other day LE was demonstrating how they could search for a fugitive with a UAV that costs far less than a helicopter. Boatpix? What's the point if you can get the same results at a fraction of the cost? If they can follow skiers at the Olympics with HD quality, then I'm sure they'll have no problems following a boat. ISR? Obviously it's strongest suite. Right now they supplement manned systems, but it won't be long before they dominate the ISR arena. ENG? TV stations can barely afford to maintain a helicopter right now. Won't long before UAVs take over that segment. Sling loads and other resupply ops in the military? Kmax has already demonstrated it can perform slings in OEF. Wildlife monitoring and crop monitoring can both be done with UAVs. The only thing I can't see UAVs doing right now, is the transport of humans.

 

I agree, they have limits but that's only if you look at them based on their current abilities. I think in the future the technology will become such that they'll be fully automonous with failure rates far less than a manned aircraft. I don't like them but like Avbug said, they're here to stay.

[avbug]

 

Anyone remember the scanners used by TSA that took naked pictures and were asserted to be not stored ?

Shortly after that knowingly false assertion, stockpiles of saved naked pictures of otherwise innocent passengers were discovered.

Drones have the most potential to date for massive abuse of our liberties and our privacy.

 

"Drones" (unmanned systems) have the most potential for abuse of liberty exactly why?

 

Is it somehow different than if a pilot were on board that platform?

 

There were no "naked pictures." That was a ridiculous overblown hype by the media.

 

Are you somehow, via a ridiculous attempt to associate TSA scanners with unmanned systems, attempting to suggest that unmanned systems will be taking "naked pictures" and storing them in some giant stockpile?

[aeroscout]

 

"Drones" (unmanned systems) have the most potential for abuse of liberty exactly why?

 

Is it somehow different than if a pilot were on board that platform?

 

There were no "naked pictures." That was a ridiculous overblown hype by the media.

 

Are you somehow, via a ridiculous attempt to associate TSA scanners with unmanned systems, attempting to suggest that unmanned systems will be taking "naked pictures" and storing them in some giant stockpile?

Ridiculous is your assessment. You will not be able to impose that assessment on anyone.

There absolutely were stored images of innocent airline passengers who were subjected to imaging equipment that penetrated all their clothing. This is very undignified to many people, maybe not to you.

If you don't see the potential for abuse of drones I question your judgement or experience. I asked if you had read 1984 by George Orwell. It might give us a better basis for understanding each other's point of view.

Today when I checked notams there were a total of 5 drones active today between the 2 closest ARTCCs.

With a bit more wisdom you would come to fully understand the term "Big Brother".

I am not dismissing your point of view. I agree with some aspects of your position. It has some validity. My position while somewhat contradictory to yours has equal absolute validity.

[apacheguy]

How do we get qualified for these new jobs?

I'm not sure if you're serious or not. If you're serious, either join the military and get trained by Uncle Sam or go to one of the colleges that have UAS programs, such as Kansas State or North Dakota.

 

break

 

As to whether or not this will be a burgeoning industry in the future, it's going to depend a lot on what the FAA decides. Having dodged more than my share of UAS, I tend to hope that FAA regs stay the same, basically making it impossible for UAS to be operated in normal airspace (not military airspace). Going face to face with a predator is no joke and the chase plane requirement doesn't seem to help much in terms of safety.

[avbug]

If you don't see the potential for abuse of drones I question your judgement or experience. I asked if you had read 1984 by George Orwell. It might give us a better basis for understanding each other's point of view.

 

 

 

What is that potential, then? I don't really want to hear about a fiction book. Clear, actual terms of reality. What is the elevated abuse you expect to take place from unmanned systems?

 

You're aware that surveillance takes place now, right? Tell me: what makes conducting surveillance from unmanned equipment somehow more sinister, or wrong, than doing it from manned equipment?

 

Today when I checked notams there were a total of 5 drones active today between the 2 closest ARTCCs.

 

 

In what sheltered world have you lived for the last decade? Do you have any idea how much UAV activity has been taking place? A lot more than you know, apparently.

 

As to whether or not this will be a burgeoning industry in the future, it's going to depend a lot on what the FAA decides. Having dodged more than my share of UAS, I tend to hope that FAA regs stay the same, basically making it impossible for UAS to be operated in normal airspace (not military airspace). Going face to face with a predator is no joke and the chase plane requirement doesn't seem to help much in terms of safety.

 

 

The closest calls I've had in my career have been unmanned systems, and the very closest was, in fact a Predator north of Basrah. Middle of the night, by my estimate, six feet. Way, way too close. I got tired of refusing reduced separation and then finding them at my altitude in my airspace, often not without a thousand feet of where they were supposed to be. In civil airspace, a menace.

[Astro]

Big Brother is irrelevant these days when every Tom Dick and Harry with a cell phone is posting everything they see on YouTube, and things like forcing a 2-stroke penalty on a player in a pro golf match, after a decision had already been made, because he recorded it on his phone then called in!

 

Privacy already no longer exists.

[Spike]

UPDATE: heard last Tuesday during a radio interview of a UAV technology professor discussing this very topic with regards to future UAV careers, the FAA has stated, operators (pilots) must obtain Private Pilot Certification in order to fly drones outside of a structure (building). No certification is required for operation inside a building and thus where most of the UAV flight training is now occurring, in conjunction with the PPL training…..