Grand Canyon Astar crash

[ChopperJ]

Any info? Operator?

[Wally]

Papillion, according to this link:

 

http://www.reviewjournal.com/business/tourism/pilot-killed-helicopter-crash-sunday-grand-canyon

[aeroscout]

A lot of discussion about it on the impolite forum.

[heligirl03]

This was a young pilot I trained with last winter (2013). Just an all-around super, genuine person. One of the rare ones that you really look forward to working with again down the road. I am absolutely heartbroken and especially devastated for his wife and overseas family. Godspeed, friend.

[aussiecop]

This sucks, especially that he was one of the rare breeds. I have a mate who flies for an operator out there, thankfully the first I heard of it was him posting it so I knew he was ok. Thoughts going out out all involved.

[rotornut67]

Prayers to the family, friends and co-workers. Sad any time we lose a brother or sister helo driver.

[Basher]

Terrible news, indeed. Thoughts and prayers headed out to the family and friends whom he left behind!

[superstallion6113]

I have a friend and former flight instructor who just got hire up there a months ago. Glad to hear it wasn't him. Very sad though for any loss of life. RIP.

[Goldy]

We've lost 3 birds this week in the southwest with two killed.....both single occupants in the bird. Ok, we can stop now.......b47, r22 and the as350b3

[aeroscout]

I sure hate hearing news like this.

It's just harder to do more than enough things right to avoid accidents and incidents in rotary compared to fixed wing.

[kkeller]

NTSB preliminary: http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20140518X03315&key=1

[akscott60]

"Witnesses reported that the pilot landed and was planning on exiting the helicopter to perform a "fluid level check." After landing, the pilot exited the running helicopter; shortly thereafter the helicopter became airborne without the pilot at the flight controls. The helicopter subsequently impacted the ground and rolled over. The pilot was struck by one or more of the main rotor blades and was fatally injured. "

 

Sad Deal

[Nearly Retired]

"Fluid level check." Heh. He had to take a leak. Maybe a bad leak. Was he in a rush? Did he forget to do something basic, like get the FFC all the way down to IDLE? Or was it perhaps unstable ground that he landed on? After all, it was a river bank, no? I landed on a sandy river bank once, well up from the waterline. It looked dry and stable but the skids sank in like it was quicksand. I was, like, "Whoa!" Got back to base and quickly rinsed the sand off the skids before the boss saw it and wondered just what kind of screwing around I'd been doing this time?

 

I've spent a LOT of time on the ground in idling helicopters. And not once...as in *NEVER* has one tried to lift off. None has ever spontaneously combusted. None has ever accellerated itself up from "idle" to "full" on its own. None has ever rolled over OR EVEN required a sudden control input from me to keep it from rolling over. (And in fact, at idle there'd be precious little I could do.)

 

I don't know about Astars specifically, so I can't say how they behave. But in all the turbine helicopters I've flown...at idle, if you pull the collective up and the rotor slows down because the governor is not in the loop. The rotor does not...cannot...maintain any kind of rpm. It just slows down. Now, without my 200 pound lardass in the seat? Can't imagine it would make much difference in the ships I fly.

 

This accident was tragic and sad, yes. Hate to hear about it. Needless, senseless death blah blah blah. But before we jump up on our high horses and claim loudly that, "NO PILOT SHOULD EVER EXIT A RUNNING HELICOPTER!!!" why don't we wait and see what the onboard video camera reveals?

[Spike]

I've spent a LOT of time on the ground in idling helicopters. And not once...as in *NEVER* has one tried to lift off. None has ever spontaneously combusted. None has ever accellerated itself up from "idle" to "full" on its own. None has ever rolled over OR EVEN required a sudden control input from me to keep it from rolling over. (And in fact, at idle there'd be precious little I could do.)

I wholeheartedly agree with this statement……

 

Story: Years ago, I attended a specific type of aviation manager training seminar where the majority of the trainees were non-aviation professionals (I’m being vague on purpose). During one presentation, the instructor interjected his opinion which was contrary to the helicopter industry norm. I subsequently called him on it stating; most of the students in the class have little to no aviation experience and when you (the instructor) say the things you do, they believe it as gospel. Worse yet, they will take this gospel and, in their minds, attempt to improve upon it. This leads to paranoia and unrealistic policy expectations. For example, minimum fuel; if the regulations state 20 minutes reserve, then 30 minutes is “safer”. If 30 minutes is “safer”, then 45 minutes is even safer yet…….. Where does it end and who is to say…. To wit, consider a highly paid professional operating a multimillion dollar machine yet regulated to a policy section which a 50 hour R22 private pilot has more flexibility....... Absolutely ridiculous…..

 

I too have NEVER had a helicopter do anything un-commanded while sitting on the ground running. However, the propaganda this type of event will generate will be monumental and for some, restrictive. IMHO, highly unnecessary and not based in reality………

Edited May 29, 2014 by Spike

[Wally]

Never had the collective rise with hydraulics functioning, but it is rigged to center at 55 knots without control boost on Astars. The collective is hard to push all the way down and lock because of this, hydraulics off. If a pilot disabled boost or used the "TEST" button to "lock" the controls prior to exiting and somehow the collective lock was knocked off, and that might just happen with a left hand pilot seat.

I've had servos 'motor' and move the cyclic...

Edited May 29, 2014 by Wally

[Nearly Retired]

Wally, I agree that a collective won't come up with the hydraulics on. I've never understood the "shut the hydraulics off" school of thought. Rotor feedback can cause the controls to move. I prefer the "friction the bitch down" technique. If the cyclic friction is inop, I wouldn't get out with it running.

 

But again, let's wait and see what additional evidence the NTSB digs up.

[DieselBoy]

Winds in the Canyon around the time of the accident were about 25g40.

[helipilotm]

This is a tragic event! But even if the winds were gusting to 40 I just don't see how the aircraft could rollover IF it was at idle. I have a decent amount of time in Astars B3's. I have a feeling the aircraft was at the flight detent for whatever reason. Also have heard the left hand drive configured Astars like this one was collective locks suck... Sad event. Well wishes to friends and family.

[aeroscout]

That collective lock doesn't catch very well. It has a locked position indicator, but it's not super easy to see. Plus, even when locked a small downward bump can easily unlock it. So if you don't check and double check it you can end up assuming wrongly that it's locked.

[Gomer Pylot]

I've flown a few 206s that would roll the throttle up to full on very quickly. I would be filling out the manifest for the flight and it would just start winding up, quickly. If it wasn't caught, an overtorque is probable, at the least. It's not common, but it happens. I've had the collective lock in Astars pop off. And when it does, even at idle, things get interesting. Again, not that common, but it happens. If you believe it can't happen, you're likely to be in for an unpleasant surprise sometime.

[eagle5]

In Robbie land leaving a running helicopter is just unthinkable, so what changes when we start flying turbines?

[A-aron]

In Robbie land leaving a running helicopter is just unthinkable, so what changes when we start flying turbines?

I'm wondering the same thing but probably because in Robbieland the frictions suck and everything is mechanical. Maybe on the turbines they use something besides rubber bands to control things.

[Spike]

In Robbie land leaving a running helicopter is just unthinkable, so what changes when we start flying turbines?

#1. No cycle count on a Robinson (or any other recip for that matter).

 

#2. In the big scheme-of-things, Robinsons can’t do much as a utility/transportation platform (which often may require a pilot to exit the machine while running).

 

Side bar; not as a matter of routine but, I’ve unlocked the collective of an AS350 and removed my hand and the machine has never moved a millimeter. However, turn the hydraulics off and ya got a huge problem….

Edited May 31, 2014 by Spike

[eagle5]

What is it that you utility guys are doing outside of the running chopper?

[aeroscout]

What is it that you utility guys are doing outside of the running chopper?

Fly for about an 8 to 10 hour shift doing nothing but hot refueling and see for yourself.