MurderedOutTaco Posted July 28, 2014 Posted July 28, 2014 I realize that getting all your certificates and ratings is just the first step in a career as a professional pilot, and that there is no guarantee of getting hired once you have accumulated minimum flight experience requirements necessary for employment. But what is the actual risk? In reality, how many folks go through all the time and expense of training, and then are unable to find work? Is it common? Or not so much? And I guess my question applies to both getting that first CFI job, and also getting that first turbine job after being a CFI for a few years. I'm sure this is a vague inquiry, but I'm just trying to get a sense of how common (or not) it is for folks to have spent all the time and money they don't have only to have it end at a roadblock. I keep hearing people say "there's no guarantee of getting a job once you have gone thru the training" and, understandably, it makes me a bit nervous. What do you experienced folks think? Quote
Fred0311 Posted July 28, 2014 Posted July 28, 2014 (edited) I'd ask you how bad do you want it? If this is a passion you're driven to achieve you'll do the hard work and networking necessary to succeed. Treat everyday you set foot in that flight school as a job interview. Dress and act professionally. Show up having studied the material to be covered. Make friends in the industry without treating them like you're only interested in them helping you get a job one day. I haven't seen anyone fail who does those things. Edited July 28, 2014 by Fred0311 3 Quote
cburg Posted July 28, 2014 Posted July 28, 2014 Aside from primary factor…raw determination, you have a slight risk of a career ending mistake. I know a lot of young instructors who are terrified of getting violated. You’ve got to keep your nose clean. Karen Ravn:Only as high as I reach can I grow,Only as far as I seek can I go,Only as deep as I look can I see,Only as much as I dream can I be. Quote
eagle5 Posted July 28, 2014 Posted July 28, 2014 Nobody likes to dwell on those who have failed to make it in this business, so I don't think there are any official numbers? You could if you really want to know, I suppose, find out how many cfis have been created these past say 5 or 10 years and send them all an email asking if they're working or not? I for one would be interested in knowing the stats. Quote
Jaybee Posted July 29, 2014 Posted July 29, 2014 My instrument instructor at Bristow started at Silver State and finished at Bristow. Worked in an Apple store for a couple of years after CFI. A customer saw his helicopter screensaver and after some talking he got a SIC position at a utility operator that did not work out. After another year he got picked up by Bristow to become an instructor, went on to get a job in the Ditch and now switched teams to work at Maverick which by most is highly regarded. Bottom line - don't give up. 1 Quote
avbug Posted July 29, 2014 Posted July 29, 2014 Employment can be had. You've got to be willing to do what it takes to get that employment, however, and that becomes the great discriminator that separates those who make it in aviaiton from those who give up and do something else. You may need to move. You may need to move multiple times. You may need to go on a very strict budget, and find supplementary income. Work two or more jobs. You may need to live an austere life for a while. You may need to travel to drop resumes and seek interviews; often it's the one standing across the desk that gets hired, rather than the hundred in the resume pile. Shaking hands counts for a lot. Don't set your expectations too high, and never lose sight of your mission. If your mission is to gain flight experience, set standard of living, schedule, personal life, wants, and in some cases needs, on hold to achieve your goals. It pays off with time, but sacrifice is often the name of the game early in the process. You are best training at a place that can hire you when you've achieved your certification. Keep in mind that beggars cannot often be choosers, and as a pilot hat in hand, you're the beggar. Be a good one. You'll find work. 6 Quote
JohnLeePettimore Posted July 30, 2014 Posted July 30, 2014 Well stated Avbug. This advice will be taken. Quote
eagle5 Posted July 30, 2014 Posted July 30, 2014 You really want an answer to your question? A lot of flight schools post "success stories" on their websites. Simply call up some schools ask how many CFI graduates they've had in the last 5 years then compare that number with how many "success stories" they have posted. 1 Quote
eagle5 Posted July 30, 2014 Posted July 30, 2014 Incidently, if it takes a fully rated pilot 20 years to get that first job, is it still considered a "success"? 2 Quote
eagle5 Posted July 30, 2014 Posted July 30, 2014 Contact Chris Patrick. He started a related thread in the Career Forum back in 2011. Can't help but wonder what happened to that poor fella? Quote
Carpenter Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 Ask 10 people and you will get 10 different answers, so here goes mine. The reality is that most student pilots don't finish all the certificates and ratings; let's say 40% do finish. Of those 40% that due finish, not all get that first teaching job; let's say 25% do get hired. Where does that calculate out to chances? The answer is 10%, and I think these numbers in my example are conservative. You could argue with the mathematician here, but you can't argue the math! The "chances" are not good, unless your one of the ones. But the chances really aren't good at many other professional fields either.By the way, let's see if R22 Butters will chime in. Where the hell is he at anyway? Quote
cryesis Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 You're going to flight school in hopes of getting a flight job.......how many people go to college and wind up working in a completely different field from their major? Should we count all the art and philosophy majors working at starbucks? Anything you do has an inherit risk of not working out but those who work hard and make the sacrifices are usually the ones who succeed. It's easy to sit there and say you have no problem moving around and living under minimum wage but when the time comes will you actually step up to the plate and take the job? I'd like to see the numbers on how many pilots out of flight school that couldn't find jobs turned down job offers. The first few years are rough. Quote
Spike Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 I’m about as smart as a brick. If I can do it, why can’t you (or anyone else for that matter)? BTW, in life, there’s no guarantee with anything…… 2 Quote
Wally Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 I've been sitting on this one because I don't want to discourage anybody. In my mind, if you have a choice, a rational argument, don't plan on a career in this field. If you have to do it, nothing else will make you happy but flying helicopters... It takes a lot of 'stuff' to make it in this business, and courage (and intelligence, smarts, work, pluck, and luck) is right up there in the list of the 'right stuff'- not recklessness, but the willingness to take a risk for a goal against a very considerable chance of not achieving it. Could you survive that and would you be happier having tried?I think the earlier post is about right in estimating that about 10% of the starters reach the finish line with employment and career. Weigh that against the 100% of those who don't start, the 100% who never become professional helicopter pilots. 3 Quote
WolftalonID Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 I’m about as smart as a brick. If I can do it, why can’t you (or anyone else for that matter)? BTW, in life, there’s no guarantee with anything……Wait..is that guaranteed? Remember the emotional panicked rants on Rhen and Stempie? Thats what pilots experience as soon as they graduate from flight school and that school says...sorry we are full up on newbies right now. Pure elation with a new certificate straight to pure drama with no job....and now no money a house could have been bought with. After a week my eyes were blood shot red, my fingernails were worn to the bone, my hair was all missing, and my left eye brow too. Then it occurred to me I had to work at it, and I began emailing resumes out to tons of places. I would call them and follow up. If they were jerks on the phone, I was done. If they showed interest I kept at it. I even asked for ideas if they were able to lend me a lead. It makes for as much work as actually working. I chased down past instructors, other pilots I had met, even asked by PM several forum members here for leads...they actually will point you in at least one direction or another. I did all but a road trip so far.... That is about my last trick...so saving for some gas to do so. After two months of chasing every stick I could find, I finally have a scheduled interview that looks good, I like the way the employer sounds, the opportunity is solid.... and... If it goes well, I will chase my dreams. Have you ever said you were going to chase your dreams???? If you have be ready to put your money were your mouth is....most dreams require a major move!!! If your not willing to go nuts you dont really want it that bad. 3 Quote
avbug Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 Look at it from a slightly different perspective. The original poster wants to know about finding work as a low-time, inexperienced new aviator. It's not a dilemma that's confined to new pilots. Throughout your career, you may find yourself searching for work due to any number of reasons, some of the more common being furlough, downsizing, closing the flight department, seasonal requirements, firing or resignation due to disagreement with management, maintenance issues, and so on. At some point, you're going to be looking for other work, even if it's just trying to advance your career. You may find yourself doing other work to pay the bills while you search. If you're smart, your search is ongoing while you have your job; one should always be looking for other work, even if gainfully employed. I always subscribe to several job services, even though employed, because one never knows if something better comes along, and in aviation, one never knows if the present job will suddenly end. I had an employer retire an aircraft in the middle of fire season, once. Just ended the contract on the spot and took it out of service; he disagreed with the government, and that was that. I was able to start with another company and finish the season before going overseas for work after the season, but it's hard to do that unless one is looking. I've also found myself sending hundreds of resumes, spending 18 hours a day in a home office following on up them, making calls, faxes, printing, etc. Every resume should be tailored to the individual employer, every cover letter custom written and addressed to the specific person in the company to which you're applying, and that takes time and research, too. Know who the Chief Pilot is. Know what the company does. Know how your background and experience can apply to it, and address that in the cover letter. Make sure the resume isn't generic; it's tailored to that company, highlighting your usefulness to them (they don't care how useful you are to the competition; just to them). The truth is that once you have that first job, you haven't got it made. You've got a ways to go. Job searching is not a function that ends after you get hired the first time; it's a function that becomes essential to your career, for the remainder of your career, no matter who you work for, what you fly, or where you work. I've taken other work when flying work wasn't there. Turning wrenches, for example. That brings up another point; how useful are you to the employer? A pilot is useful, but a dime a dozen. A pilot with maintenance certification and experience is more useful, and not as common. What are you doing to make yourself more useful to a prospective employer? With that first job, you could get your CFI and call it good. That makes you useful because you do have the bare bones basic certification. What about CFII? That makes you more useful. You might not need the ground instructor certification once you are a flight instructor, but it does add a little weight to your resume, so why not get the AGI, and IGI? Thinking of a degree? A degree in professional aeronautics is something, but what does it actually do? Why not a degree in aircraft maintenance technology? That's something useful. Got low time, low experience? Willing to get your hands dirty? The company might not need an instructor today, but they might need help in the shop. Willing to be a mechanic's assistant while you wait for a slot to open up? That might be your "in." It might be the extra income you need to survive while you start instructing, too. It might also teach you a little more about the machine, and that in turn might help you teach, and it might save your life. All those things helped me, including saving my life. What's it worth to you? Travel to seek work. Get qualified as broadly as you can. It's easier to fish in waters full of fish, and it's easier to fish with bait that's desired. The broader your qualifications, willingness, ability, earnestness in work, the more likely you are to find work. Frankly I'm a lot more interested in the person who takes the time to deliver the resume in person, than the one that mails it in. I know more about a pilot before we ever get to the aircraft to fly than I'll learn from the flight, because the pilot's manner, dress, conversation, language, and simple interaction in answering questions and discussing aviation tell me far more than I really need to know to evaluate that individual as an aviator. This applies to you when you rock up to the front door of your prospective employer; the secretary may be as far as you get, but rest assured she's savvy about young aviators and knows what she's seeing from the get-go, as does the Chief Pilot, Director of Operations, Director of Maintenance, Owner, or whomever else you meet. If you do go to the door or the desk, resume and hat in hand (yes, it comes off when you walk in the door), know the company in advance. Go in there knowing the names of the principle players. Know what the company flies, what they do. You don't want to get caught with a simple question "what do you know about us?" with nothing to offer. Know. This requires research and preparation. I've gone to job interviews in which I prepared a 60 page report on the company in advance, in preparation for the interview, as a means to study them. Press reports, their own web site, a little background information, history, even accident reports are all in your favor. Do they have a good reputation? Not so good? Know before you go. Job searching often requires a road trip. Be prepared to do that. Early in the career, flying in adds a little something that walking in the door doesn't. I've seen several intrepid aviators hired when they landed at the prospective employers facility and dropped a resume. I hired a few of them myself. One whom I know went on to become a chief pilot elsewhere for a large regional organization. He was a go-getter, and that's what you need to be if you want work. You absolutely cannot give up, and those who survive in the business are often not necessarily the sharpest tools in the shed, but simply those who kept trying, kept coming back, and would not give up. It's said that Socrates once nearly drowned Plato by holding him under the water. His lesson was simple; when you seek knowledge as much as you desired air, then you're ready. The same applies to searching for work, retaining work, and building a career as an aviator. How badly do you want it? Finally, remember that it's not just about finding work. Can you find work? Yes, you can. All of us who fly professionally have been in your shoes, and we all did, and continue to do. You can too. Finding work isn't the half of it. Retaining that job, keeping it and magnifying that job, owning it, expanding it, making it yours and making yourself valuable, is the meat of the process. Interviewing is just getting your foot in the door, your camel nose under the tent. Keeping that job is what counts, and your goal should be to leave the employer some day with a good recommendation. Become a collector of good recommendations. It's not a one-off process that starts as a new pilot; it's a lifetime practice that won't end until your career is over. Build good work history. Get good grades. They say a lot about you. No matter what you do, even if its non-aviation, come away with pleased former-employers. Armed guard at night at a remote industrial site? It still reflects on your character for that next aviation job, and it still says who you were as a person and an employee. Scrubbed supermarket floors, or delivered flowers, or substitute taught high school? Cleaned movie theaters or turned wrenches or serviced ATM's? I did all those things while working second flying jobs, and a lot more, from working in a greenhouse to mixing chemicals to driving a tractor and drilling grain. I was a cop, firefighter. EMT. Built log cabins. Dug ditches. Worked in a stable. Even delivered phone books and newspapers. You do what you need to do, but regardless of what you do, do it well, and earn a reputation as a good worker, a reliable worker, someone with whom others can work, and someone that works well with others. Recognize your own self-worth but know that you can be replaced in a heartbeat. Keep that in mind always, so you understand that you don't only compete for your job, but to keep it. Do that, and you'll have the start and underpinings of a good career, no matter what you do. 8 Quote
Astro Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 I think the OP simply wants to know how many new cfis have failed to find work. A question for which I don't think anyone has the answer to, because I don't think anyone keeps track? Quote
Wally Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) I think the OP simply wants to know how many new cfis have failed to find work. A question for which I don't think anyone has the answer to, because I don't think anyone keeps track? That's an easy one to quantify: Ask the school how many CFI students they graduated in the last year or two (whatever period you plan to teach). Then ask how many total are working there at that moment, turnover can be misleading... If it's 100 cfis and 10 instructors? Well, there's your index for that period of time. It ain't perfect, but it's in the ballpark, considering hires come from all over, other schools too. Not that teaching is the only track.A nugget (brand new pilot) isn't going to be competing for 1500 or 3000 hour jobs, but should certainly be planning to do so. Edited July 31, 2014 by Wally Quote
Azhigher Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 Tip: Find a school that trains people who have no desire to be a CFI at said school. I.e. Foreign students that come to get their certs and go home to be SIC's. Lots of students, lots of hours to go around, less competition for the CFI spots. 1 Quote
A-aron Posted July 31, 2014 Posted July 31, 2014 At least right now the school I'm at seems to need CFIs. The second you get CFI then you start teaching ground lessons for private and commercial students then when you get your CFII you start flying. A lot has to due with the amount of students joining each year and that it seems like the instructors are able to find other jobs within 2 years of being there. (From a students perspective) Quote
eagle5 Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 You're going to flight school in hopes of getting a flight job.......how many people go to college and wind up working in a completely different field from their major? Should we count all the art and philosophy majors working at starbucks? Anything you do has an inherit risk of not working out but those who work hard and make the sacrifices are usually the ones who succeed. It's easy to sit there and say you have no problem moving around and living under minimum wage but when the time comes will you actually step up to the plate and take the job? I'd like to see the numbers on how many pilots out of flight school that couldn't find jobs turned down job offers. The first few years are rough. Turn down a job because they don't want to live under minimum wage? What do you think those pilots will do if they turn down that cfi job? Unlike a college degree flight school certs ain't worth sh*t in the real world, so any new cfi who turns down a cfi job is just going to go back to his job at starbucks and contine to live under minimum wage anyway! At least one day that college grad will find a good job even if its outside of his field. The only way that cfi will ever find a good job outside of his field is if he goes to college. Go to college! 2 Quote
Spike Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 (edited) I realize that getting all your certificates and ratings is just the first step in a career as a professional pilot, and that there is no guarantee of getting hired once you have accumulated minimum flight experience requirements necessary for employment. But what is the actual risk? This solely depends on you. That is, 100% on you. With that, the risk is what you make it. Train at the right school, posture yourself as a professional, be skilled and knowledgeable, bring the required attitude, and bring value and credibility to the organization and the risk is less. Don’t do these things and the risk is high. In the end, it’s your decision…… In reality, how many folks go through all the time and expense of training, and then are unable to find work? Is it common? Or not so much? Again, this depends on you. Some have no problems finding work while others will never find work. This is not a situation of circumstance but rather people understanding what it takes and acting on that understanding. Some don’t, nor will ever understand and hence, never find work…. And I guess my question applies to both getting that first CFI job, and also getting that first turbine job after being a CFI for a few years. Same-same….. I'm sure this is a vague inquiry, but I'm just trying to get a sense of how common (or not) it is for folks to have spent all the time and money they don't have only to have it end at a roadblock. Most roadblocks are self-induced. Take me for example. I want to fly a medium but I don’t want to risk leaving my current gig/pay/location/lifestyle to achieve my goal. This is, self-induced……. I keep hearing people say "there's no guarantee of getting a job once you have gone thru the training" and, understandably, it makes me a bit nervous. Understandably. However, any endeavor worthwhile will have this dilemma. Maybe seek a career that doesn’t make you nervous and guarantees a job but in the end, will it be worthwhile to you? What do you experienced folks think? It’s up to you to decide. Sure, post on the internet and gain some prospective but understand, this is not the place to gain advice on life-changing career decisions. Talk to real people who work in the “real world” of the helicopter industry and see if this is for you….. Edited August 1, 2014 by Spike Quote
Stickjiggler Posted August 1, 2014 Posted August 1, 2014 " Talk to real people who work in the “real world” of the helicopter industry and see if this is for you….." Good point, that. No matter what course of education you choose to follow, there's a risk you won't get hired quickly. Right now, many, many professionals from all walks of life are finding it hard to get/keep a job. But right now, it's especially hard on the heli industry for new pilots.As mentioned, you really need to take a deeper, closer look into what being a helicopter pilot takes.When I was younger, there was nothing that was going to stop me and as such, I've had some incredible experiences. But the market place has changed, and so have I. For example, the daily rates and hourly flight pay were higher in 2008 than they are now. Some company averages are down to two hours. And if the aircraft doesn't fly at all, no averages!Having children changed my perspective a great deal. Being away from home is becoming more tiring, more quickly. (My son is crazy about everything aviation. I do NOT want him to become a pilot!)On the other hand, there are some jobs that I've done which were incredible fun, and I had to keep reminding myself that I was getting paid (very well) to do this. But it's not all about money. If you believe that the very act of flying a helicopter is (almost) reward enough and nothing else will do, then I think that kind of attitude will get you through those first few years while you gain experience. IF you do decide to go for it, don't give up. No matter what, don't give up! 1 Quote
r22butters Posted August 2, 2014 Posted August 2, 2014 ...It's easy to sit there and say you have no problem moving around and living under minimum wage but when the time comes will you actually step up to the plate and take the job? I'd like to see the numbers on how many pilots out of flight school that couldn't find jobs turned down job offers... ...By the way, let's see if R22 Butters will chime in. Where the hell is he at anyway? I’ve been writing a book. How to not become a career pilot. Here’s a story from chapter six: I turned down a job once. Yes, that’s right, “boo-hoo I can’t find a job” butters actually turned a job down! It was a few years ago. It was a night job, and as my goal was to one day get on with Maverick giving the night rides over the Vegas strip, I thought this would be good, relevant experience, so I was excitedly interested. The job was a long way from home, with airfare, hotel, and rental car I was already in it for $1500 when I got the interview. Funny thing, when I got there he thought I was this 150hr pilot he’d been talking to. I said, actually I have 600hrs,…oops, I guess he called the wrong guy!…oh’ well? The job was flying low and slow mainly over the freeway with occasional orbiting of sports arenas and events. A split shift – a couple hours before dawn, then again just after twilight for a couple hours or more. This meant having a second job would be difficult. Plus since it was the Great Recession I couldn’t count on even being able to find a second job (even at Duncan Donuts,…oh’ that would have been sweet! ). So I’d most likely be blowing through my savings to survive, since the job only paid $500/mo. I figured after a year I’d be completely broke and since he said they only flew about 30hrs last year I definitely wouldn’t have the hours to move on! Not to mention how could I continue there without my savings to keep me alive (if I never found that second job)? Also with two jobs it would be difficult to be well rested which adds yet another hazard to night flying,…in my experience! One more thing. I was going to have to pay for training (which turned out to be nothing more than familiarizing me with the airspace and area). Not really worth the $3500 price tag I eventually concluded. One more thing again. To move there I was going to have to drive my car clear across the country in the dead of winter (not an exciting adventure for a 10 year old car that can’t take chains). Plus the trip would be another $1500, or so! That’s of course provided nothing went wrong! Yet one more thing. The operation was out of a private, grass strip, with a long bumpy, pothole filled dirt road leading up to it. During the dry season I might be able to crawl over it ok (my rental car got bumped around pretty good), but once it was covered with snow, slush, and ice, my aging sports car would never make it! So a long-ass walk (close to a mile) from the main (paved) road I guess. Yet again one more thing. I love flying at night, which is why almost half my time is at night. However, flying at around 20kts and/or hovering/slow orbiting for long periods at night (which the job entailed) can get kinda disorientating after a while, which I found out when I did a flight for him the night after the interview. Another thing, I was a bit concerned about the autorotational characteristics of this modified little piston chopper. He said it couldn’t swp. I guess that meant a restricted upflow, due to the modification? Which got me wondering if that would effect its ability to obtain an autorotative state? In retrospect, I guess I should have asked? Not to mention the less than favorable forced landing areas around the freeway at night anyway! So in short - $1500 for the interview - $1500 to move to the job - $3500 for “training” (which seemed more like me paying my salary for the first 7 months). - Be broke after a year. - My car possibly not making it, or needing expensive repairs I couldn’t afford. - Killing myself from disorientation/fatigue, or from an auto in an experimental at night? - All for about 30hrs of flight time! Too many what ifs for me I guess, so I turned it down, a decision I’ve regretted ever since,…funny how that is? Most would say I obviously don’t want it badly enough,…and they’d be right, I don’t! Anyway, “It’s a horrible industry!” That’s not me saying that, its what a chief pilot said to me just last week during a phone interview,…after he said “Get more experience and we’ll consider you” Get used to hearing that by the way. In conclusion, since I’m not a cfi I wouldn’t consider my 8+ year job search “common”. So fear not Taco guy (well at least not too much) as long as you’re a cfi you’ll be ok. Yes the odds are against you, but not as much as they are against my picky, whinny, ass. Good luck! 10/4 good buddies.- Big Rig Butters P.S. So who can guess what the job was?…’cause I’m not telling! Quote
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