helonorth Posted March 15, 2015 Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 (edited) http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-me-adv-gibill-20150315-story.html#page=1 What a racket. Edited March 15, 2015 by helonorth 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helonorth Posted March 15, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 But look at the bright side: 12 people got ratings for only $6 mil. I wonder if they are doing now? My guess less than half even finished and less than that are even working as instructors. I wonder if you can do a fixed wing an a Gulfstream? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pohi Posted March 15, 2015 Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 I'm gonna be really excited when the VA puts a stop to this crap and these schools go bankrupt. I'm not saying the VA should cut benefits entirely, I'm saying that they need to stop the extreme abuse to the system these schools are allowed to do. I did all of my training with the original VA benefits just fine. Doing training in a turbine isn't going to help the student land a job easier, the only person it benefits is the flight school owner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminal_velo Posted March 15, 2015 Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 Upper Limit is the scum of the helicopter flight training industry. I'd put them right below Boatpix. They know exactly what they're doing, that article spells it out perfectly. I would never hire, or recommend for hire, someone who chose to feed that beast. Have some damn integrity. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBuzzkill Posted March 15, 2015 Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 I worked for a VA school and it was an honest system. They charged exactly the same as any other student and didn't abuse the privileges given to Veterans in order to make a buck. I am all for quality training but when you're using the system to make millions and then claiming that it's benefiting students (clearly a lie) you should be put out of business. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Pig Posted March 15, 2015 Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 I used the old 60/40 plan..... That worked pretty well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminal_velo Posted March 15, 2015 Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 I appreciate the benefits, but there absolutely needs to be more done to prevent the abuse of them. I'd like the VA to step in, or require that the Institutions of Higher Learning to, negotiate prices for flight training. Currently there's absolutely nothing stopping places like Upper Limit from charging dramatically over market price for the services. With the volume of sales that the VA generates through these programs, there's needs to be some price negotiation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-aron Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 I am not very surprised by either of the flights schools being included in this article.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carpenter Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 It is an absolute disgrace! The school owners that operate this way should be embarrassed. Wasn't there a con artist of similar character a few years ago named Jerry that ran a slime ball operation named Silver State? Welcome to America folks. The Land of Plunder! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiteshadow Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 The veterans themselves are also at fault here. If they understand how the industry works (which they should if they do a little research), they would not help these places rip off the VA. What will happen to those 430 students when the program goes away, perhaps just as they are completing their CFI? Now they don't have a job because the student pool will dry up immediately. The program needs to be protected so that future veterans will ALWAYS have this opportunity available to them. The only way to do this is for students to enroll in schools who operate honestly, and by being honest about what they truly NEED to get into the industry. I also think that the VA needs to tighten up the rules about getting the degree. Lots of veteran students grab their ratings and stop going to school without finishing the degree. I have seen people literally stop with only college algebra to complete. A free degree, and you won't get it because you have to take a math class? It makes me sick, as a veteran, when I see these people taking all of this incredible benefit and not being very appreciative of it. I have even seen them talking to non-veteran students and CFI's saying things like, "it's not my money" or "I'm not paying for it". They are saying this to someone who saved and borrowed and gambled for years to make their career happen. In the end, I hate to say it, but I have seen a lot of veterans who are spoiled with benefits, ungrateful for the opportunity, and flat out lazy. I hope the VA realizes there are a lot of honest schools out there, and even for all the veterans who don't deserve it, there are many many more who do deserve it. We need this program to continue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astro Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 One guys training cost $600,000! Did I read that right? Because if I did then it can't be long before the VA goes broke? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybee Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 I think we covered what kind of scumbags one of these schools was over a year ago http://helicopterforum.verticalreference.com/topic/17567-upper-limit-salt-lake-city-ut/ http://helicopterforum.verticalreference.com/topic/17468-skip-that-first-tier-job/ What's worse than the schools, are the people who know better taking full advantage of it. In the Air Force we called those people Blue Falcons. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apacheguy Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 The VA is the only entity at fault here. Blaming vets is ridiculous. Have you ever applied for a VA disability? The system exists to create jobs and generate political power for the VA by classifying more and more vets as 'disabled'. Then the VA can go back to Congress and ask for more money to serve us poor brokedown patriots. If you have some GI Bill coming to you, use it before it's gone. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybee Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 Nah. Its pretty common knowledge, available to anyone with the least bit of research and repeated ad nauseum by people on this site. That knowledge is that the best path to a career is to train in the R22 and get a job as a CFI and turbine transitions are not worth the money. I am a vet but no I have not applied for disability. I used the old 60/40 GI Bill where I still had to pay out my pocket then wait to be reimbursed. I am so happy that people no longer have to pay out of pocket first and be reimbursed later. Training in a $3500/hr helicopter is ridiculous and if you are a willing participant in that then you are just as bad as the operator. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybee Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 If you have some GI Bill coming to you, use it before it's gone. and that is the ultimate point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtRandom801 Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 I can't believe some of the comments on here attacking and bashing veterans. We have worked hard and sacrificed A LOT for these benefits. You need to remember that the veterans are not the ones choosing what it costs to operate a helicopter. We don't really have a choice on a school because we can only go to where the VA says we can. If the VA changed funding to allow direct funding to flight schools with a cap, then the industry would reverse and the cost to train would be significantly lower. A lot of veterans do work hard for degrees and certificates, just because it's not technically our money, doesn't mean we did not earn every penny for it, some of us lost family and friends for these benefits. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnSopher Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 Seems surprising how candid the owners are about how much they are charging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminal_velo Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 I can't believe some of the comments on here attacking and bashing veterans. I can. The vets are part of the problem. The vets chose which school they attend and who gets that big VA windfall. If the vets took a minute to stop and care about the money their spending, as if it was their own, crooks like Upper Limit wouldn't have a chance. We don't really have a choice on a school because we can only go to where the VA says we can. There are schools all over of the country, most of them ethical. Nobody has to go to Upper Limit. just because it's not technically our money, doesn't mean we did not earn every penny for it, some of us lost family and friends for these benefits. I haven't seen a single person in this thread say that vets don't earn the GI Bill. We're talking about how they chose to use (and abuse) it. Come on now, follow along. Long story short, ULA has proven, time and time again, how much of a joke they are. Any vet who goes there and commits $300,000 of the VA's money to that program is either completely ignorant, or a selfish prick who's just out to get theirs. They don't care about the longevity of the GI Bill funding flight training. Anyone who chooses to instruct there is even worse. I hope ULA gets cut off from VA money. I hope it happens swiftly and with no warning. I'd love to see that company go under. That way they can stop abusing the VA, stop crashing helicopters, and stop misleading people. It'd be a good day for the industry, and would make me very happy. The sooner the better. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtRandom801 Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 There are schools all over of the country, most of them ethical. Nobody has to go to Upper Limit. Please list any school you know of that offers post 9/11 GI-Bill benefits that do NOT take advantage of the VA. Please keep in mind this is total funding, none of the pay your own PPL then we'll give you 10k a year. Long story short, ULA has proven, time and time again, how much of a joke they are. Any vet who goes there and commits $300,000 of the VA's money to that program is either completely ignorant, or a selfish prick who's just out to get theirs. They don't care about the longevity of the GI Bill funding flight training. Anyone who chooses to instruct there is even worse.The students are not the ones creating the cost, nor are they the ones that are approving the cost, come on now, follow along. The student is there to get quality instruction and to receive a certificate. And to say that anyone who instructs there is even worse is ridiculous. This industry is not anything easy and if you can get a job ANYWHERE, I'm sure you're taking it. Upper Limit is the scum of the helicopter flight training industry. I'd put them right below Boatpix. They know exactly what they're doing, that article spells it out perfectly. I would never hire, or recommend for hire, someone who chose to feed that beast. Have some damn integrity.Your anger seems to be at anyone that had any upper hand than you did. No one, and I mean NO ONE, likes ill practices in this industry. Just because veterans go there to get their certificate does not mean they are less skilled pilots than any other pilot from a different school. I hope when anyone is looking to hire someone they are more concerned with their flying ability than what school they went to. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carpenter Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 No one DESERVES anything. We have all worked hard. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminal_velo Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 Please list any school you know of that offers post 9/11 GI-Bill benefits that do NOT take advantage of the VA. Please keep in mind this is total funding, none of the pay your own PPL then we'll give you 10k a year. Most of the programs I've seen are $90,000 +/- $10k or so, versus $300,000 for ULA. Most offer a little bit of advanced training, a little turbine time or long line stuff, to introduce you to it, and they do it in a cheap turbine. A little bit of exposure to those things is appropriate for a professional pilot degree. But the amount of turbine time that people get at ULA is outrageous, and the prices that they pay for that turbine time are outrageous, and the misleading marketing that ULA puts out there is outrageous. Upper Limit Aviation is clearly abusing the system. The students are not the ones creating the cost, nor are they the ones that are approving the cost, come on now, follow along. The student is there to get quality instruction and to receive a certificate. And to say that anyone who instructs there is even worse is ridiculous. This industry is not anything easy and if you can get a job ANYWHERE, I'm sure you're taking it. You don't understand simple economics. it's supply and demand. If there wasn't demand (a line of veterans waiting at ULA's door), ULA wouldn't be able to rape the system like they do. Veterans aren't the only ones at fault. The colleges and the VA share some culpability, too. But the veterans, and the instructors who perpetuate the cycle, are certainly to blame as well. Your anger seems to be at anyone that had any upper hand than you did. Negative, ghostrider. I'm a vet, and used my Post 9/11 benefits to do my training. However, I did my research and chose not associate with the crooks at ULA. Why? Because I appreciate the benefits we get. I had a dream to be a helicopter pilot. The GI Bill helped me get there. I want the GI Bill to continue to help people that do that. Schools like ULA, the instructors that work there, and the customers that keep them thriving (that's the vets), don't give a sh*t about the longevity of the program. They're in it to get theirs, and that's it. Just because veterans go there to get their certificate does not mean they are less skilled pilots than any other pilot from a different school. I hope when anyone is looking to hire someone they are more concerned with their flying ability than what school they went to. Nobody said they're less skilled. What are you talking about? The reason I wouldn't hire a ULA product, or provide a recommendation for one, is because I value integrity. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pohi Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 I hope when anyone is looking to hire someone they are more concerned with their flying ability than what school they went to.I think this is exactly the point. Choosing to make the VA pay thousands of dollars per hour instead of hundreds of dollars to train in an aircraft that isn't going to benefit the student is the problem. The owners of the schools are simply greedy and the students are feeding the owners greed and bank account. There is a difference between using benefits in a responsible manner and blowing as much money as you can, just because you can. Aka, "It's not my money, and I deserve this....." 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R22139RJ Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 We shouldn't be surprised, This is America, it's what we do. Rape. Pillage. Move on. Spreading the article amongst friends and peers and maybe writing a letter to your representatives is the best we can do. If something doesn't change this system will fail and veterans do deserve it, the companies raping Uncle Sam dont. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wally Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 (edited) Blaming the vet overlooks the fact the student relies on the instructor and institution represented for accurate information. They tell you this, that or the other, you believe it. The logical position is that a liar is a liar in everything uttered, so... There are so many obvious red flags in the articles: for instance I don't charter, but $1800 an hour for an Astar sounds high to me. Rape, pillage and move on are not "American" or any western culture's value, except Wall Street, where everything has a price and is for sale. They make organized crime look like Gandhi. Edited March 16, 2015 by Wally 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R22139RJ Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 (edited) oops Edited March 16, 2015 by R22139RJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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