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Again for the slow people, the VA examined and approved these schools and these payments. The problem lies solely with the VA, and by extension, the Congress that funds it. Blaming schools or vets is ridiculous.

 

http://www.teaparty.org/17000-federal-employees-made-200000-last-year-85559/

 

Most of the high paid federal workers are in the VA. Big surprise there. The VA is a self sustaining monster bureaucracy at this point, clearly not doing what we intended it to do.

 

Call your congressman and complain, that's literally your only course of action if you find this situation so horrible.

No, you can also not participate in this boondoggle.

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It is very clear that you and Terminal_Velo have this straight clear cut thinking that the vets are the ones to blame. The ones to blame are these flight schools pushing and charging the cost for the training. The vets are just trying to make a career with whats provided, and I will not wreck my future just because private pay guys can't compete with VA funding. If a private pay guys wants his education paid for then maybe he should go serve 4 tours in 4 years.

 

 

 

You keep getting stuck on this one point, and want to make it look like vets are being picked on. It's pathetic actually. I never said that vets are solely to blame. Do I think they share some of the blame for how out of control this has become? HELL YES! If the vets weren't there, taking all they could get, the school would have no way to support their expensive habit (buying unnecessary training helicopters).

 

I would love it if just one vet were to admit that they are abusing their benefit by accepting this unnecessary training. But that won't happen. Instead you will try to formulate a reason why you "deserve" it.

 

You have no idea the nugget of wisdom that Wally is trying to bestow upon you. When this program finally gets the axe, where will those hundreds of pilots (between the 2 pilot factories in question) go for work? Assuming every last one of you make it to CFI, how many of you do you think they will need on their staff? How many of you will have to go to other schools (who have their own pool of available CFI's) to find work as an instructor? How do you think these schools might respond to your resume when they see where you trained? You can't see it because you are blinded by your entitlement attitude (which is common of many, many, many vets).

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Back in the early 90’s, I paid roughly 30K for my training which gave me the basics. That is, CFI with R22 and some S300 time. I’ve been somewhat gainfully employed ever since and, I’m about as smart as a brick…..

 

Understanding how this business works is a necessity for success. Without that understanding, many will fail regardless who pays for it or, how much is paid. Plus, there is a level of desire needed far more than simply qualifying for benefits. Or better said; serving to earn the benefits is far different than having the desire to succeed which was highlighted by the drop-out rate in the article. That said, these schools apparently are not conveying the formula needed for success… At least not everyone “got-it” and this is a shame…..

 

With the above in mind, I was fortunate enough to get hired into a turbine gig prior to the imaginary 1000 hours. Over a short period, I gained approximately 250 hours of the supposed coveted turbine time. After that job, I couldn’t find a flying gig to save my life. To be clear, no one cared about the turbine time. However, what came to be valuable was my prior piston time. This allowed me to reenter business as a CFI….

 

As far who is at fault, we can blame everyone. The government, the Vets, the schools and the helicopter industry are all at fault, all-the-while, they were all victims as well…. In my experience, as a society, we tend to blame the victims for the wrongdoings and there a reason for that……..

 

Lastly, yes, ones reputation in this business is critical and that does extend to whom you’ve worked for in the past……

Edited by Spike
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This is just a symptom of a much wider and more serious problem, how massive and how the Federal, State and Local governments operate! It takes no genius to figuire out that if things do not get rained in and a good chunk of red ink gets whittled down, things will get ugly! When I first when to flight school back in the 1970's some at the school was giving me a hard time, the usual junk that people do, the book keeper spoke up one day and said be careful, all he has do do is leave, he is 30% of your Non VA business at this time and if he goes so dose VA approval! Back then guys on the VA had to do the Private Pilot Certificate on there own and then the VA would pick up 90% of the bill for the Commerical Instrument CFI and Multi and Rotorcraft Helicopter! There was not much civil helicopter instruction going on back then, R-22 had not shown up yet. Then in the late 70's the VA dropped flight training from the list that benifits could be used for, till the Mongomery GI Bill became law and it became a 60/40 split. All of this is not sustainable and you don't need a PhD in economics to see and and understand this, all you need is being able to balance a check book! You think time are hard now, wait a while, the red ink is going to put a stop to a lot of things, and not just at the VA! The GI Bill is a good thing but it can't be a bottom less pit either, then again nor can the Government at large can either!

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The vets are just trying to make a career with whats provided, and I will not wreck my future just because private pay guys can't compete with VA funding. If a private pay guys wants his education paid for then maybe he should go serve 4 tours in 4 years.

 

 

So, because you did 4 tours you think you are entitled to a $300,000+ training program and end up with the same exact credentials as a $60,000 program can give you?

 

Sorry, but you've already wrecked your future by falling for their BS. You won't be able to get a job when you are finished.

 

A small company a few years ago made many false promises and big claims too...they are now bankrupt and their students fell to the wayside. Sure the "every CFI gets a job!" slogan looks good to the uninformed student but is one demo flight a month really "employed"?

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So, because you did 4 tours you think you are entitled to a $300,000+ training program and end up with the same exact credentials as a $60,000 program can give you?

 

Sorry, but you've already wrecked your future by falling for their BS. You won't be able to get a job when you are finished.

 

A small company a few years ago made many false promises and big claims too...they are now bankrupt and their students fell to the wayside. Sure the "every CFI gets a job!" slogan looks good to the uninformed student but is one demo flight a month really "employed"?

From what I've seen my school actually makes good on the every CFI gets a job. But if I had to guess they would not let you move on with them in their program if they didn't want to hire you as a CFI. (being unsafe etc).

 

Also how many of these extra courses like turbine and what not are required for the students? If the course is require for a degree or certificate then the student is pretty much forced to take it. I am not saying that its right, just that there are many factors involved. From what I understand even if the courses are not required for a degree or something, the school may still heavily push you to do it if not expect you to do it. It's not wise to bite the hand that feeds you.

 

The VA should actually be the ones saying no to these courses because again many students have no idea what is actually needed. I have the opportunity to do NVG and turbine courses but after talking to other people and being on here I realized they are not very helpful and so if I do not do them then I really do not care that much.

 

I will say that there may very well be people taking advantage of the VA on purpose as a student instead of being clueless to what is actually needed. Are a majority of the students actually trying to take advantage of the VA? I doubt it, I think its just a matter of doing the courses the flight school says to do.

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Ignorance is bliss…..

 

With respect to this circumstance, to believe a student who funds his/her own training is at a disadvantage, or “can’t compete”, is misguided, -big time….. In fact, in my experience as a former DO of a flight school who offered comparable programs, it’s the complete opposite…. Furthermore, attempting to belittle anyone for the path they choose is downright shameful…...

 

Statements like these is the reason why people are disgusted with this……

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Maybe I'll go buy a Sky Crane and do a Type 1 intro course. Maybe even let them suck up some water, that'll look good on a resume...

 

The article summed it up better then any of us can. They have a 60% drop out rate and several of their graduates aren't employed in aviation. One is a miner now because he couldn't get a flying job.

Edited by adam32
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In visiting a few of the flight schools that train Vets in helicopters, I asked how many drop out and when?

 

I was told that many Vets were introduced to helicopters in Afghanistan or Iraq and thought that it would be cool to fly helicopters. Many did not even think about doing this for a living/career, they just wanted to fly helicopters and took advantage of a free training opportunity to get to fly a helicopter. Some drop out during Private when they realize that it requires studying and learning a large amount of information and that they must take a written test, oral and practical test.

 

Those that passed the Private did not always continue into an Instrument rating. So, by this point many had dropped out.

 

Having said this, those that were serious about acquiring an education and Pilot certificates to become a career pilot, applied themselves and can be or have been successful in becoming CFIIs. Some are also jointly completing college or university degrees.

 

As with all applicants (Vets or not), some are more serious than others and complete the programs in lesser times.

 

Currently, there are industry professionals getting prepared to approach Congress about not cutting off benefits but rectifying the allowed abuses. We are also concerned about not dumping a lot of CFIIs on the street with no jobs and no way to complete the career path to the next tier level.

 

I am a decorated combat veteran (from a lifetime ago) and feel that our Vets deserve opportunities but also must be responsible in selecting and attaining an educational path.

 

Hopefully we can get the abuses stopped but continue to offer educational benefits for those that serve our country.

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I am a decorated combat veteran (from a lifetime ago) and feel that our Vets deserve opportunities but also must be responsible in selecting and attaining an educational path.

 

Hopefully we can get the abuses stopped but continue to offer educational benefits for those that serve our country.

Well said Mike...did I ever say thank you for your service?

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Well said Mike...did I ever say thank you for your service?

Steve,

 

When people thank me for my service I respond, "No thanks necessary as it is my responsibility as a citizen to do for my country".

 

Mike

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I was told that many Vets were introduced to helicopters in Afghanistan or Iraq and thought that it would be cool to fly helicopters.

 

With emphasis on the word “cool”……

 

And sure, it’s cool to have some turbine time but that’s all it is, -cool…..

Edited by Spike
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So a few changes look like they're falling into place...

 

"(II) In determining the actual net cost for in-State tuition and fees pursuant to subclause (I), the Secretary may not pay for fees relating to flight training.''

 

Source: https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/476/text

 

Looks like this is going away for good.

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That fine "business model" was nothing more than a found loophole that ripped off the taxpayers and now may have destroyed it for everyone. Upper Limit probably knew something like this would eventually happen, so they went all in, abusing the hell out of it while they could. Do you think maybe the $3,500 an hour 205 might have sent off some alarm bells in D.C.?

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So a few changes look like they're falling into place...

 

"(II) In determining the actual net cost for in-State tuition and fees pursuant to subclause (I), the Secretary may not pay for fees relating to flight training.''

 

Source: https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/476/text

 

Looks like this is going away for good.

Just go back to the 60/40 plan that put many of us through school and call it a day.

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That fine "business model" was nothing more than a found loophole that ripped off the taxpayers and now may have destroyed it for everyone. Upper Limit probably knew something like this would eventually happen, so they went all in, abusing the hell out of it while they could. Do you think maybe the $3,500 an hour 205 might have sent off some alarm bells in D.C.?

 

Why do you think they called it "Upper Limit"? Because its the most expensive!,... and you probably thought it meant high altitude, or the best training,...or some gay ass sh*t like that.:D

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Upper Limits response to the LA Times article.

 

http://www.thespectrum.com/story/news/local/cedar-city/2015/03/19/upper-limit-aviation-addresses-loophole-claims/25052015/

 

I don't remember reading anything about their pass rate coming into question, but maybe I'm wrong. Also if they could maybe expand on these high paying jobs that are being offered to 200 hour pilots that'd be awesome. Also, considering the entire point was based around the price of the school you'd think maybe he would touch on that as well? Give me a justification for why a 205 is necessary for training. Or maybe how flying an AStar for your entire commercial benefits you over flying a 300C?

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apacheguy said:

 

"Again for the slow people, the VA examined and approved these schools and these payments. The problem lies solely with the VA, and by extension, the Congress that funds it. Blaming schools or vets is ridiculous."

 

Do you really believe the VA "approved" Upper Limit using an Astar and a 205 for primary training? No, Upper Limit saw there was no wording stating an "upper limit" on the dollar amount a vet could run up for training and took advantage of it. I wonder what the wording is for fixed wing training? Could you do it in a $2,000 an hour Citation instead of a 172?

 

I never read anyone blaming veterans. And yes, I can and do blame the schools. 12 people rang up $500,000 bills for primary training. The schools took advantage of a loophole. It was a loophole big enough to drive a car through but they knew damn well they were abusing the hell out of it. A $3,500 an hour 205 for God's sake?!

 

And apparently, somebody did call their congressman and now it's probably over.

 

What is Upper Limit doing right now? Probably flying the hell out of that overpriced, $1,800 Astar, I would imagine. While they still can.

Edited by helonorth
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Mikemv makes another great point. There are a lot of vets in the program who just think it's cool, and since they aren't paying for it, why not? They couldn't care less if they ever end up working in the industry or not. We even had one person at our school who flat out said that he was in the program, "to screw over the VA for as much money as possible". Thankfully he was shown the door shortly after.

 

We will never be able to get something like that fixed. There is no way of only letting into the program those who truly want to do this for a living. Fortunately, that is a small percentage of the vets in the program.

 

For the people who think that I and others are "out to get vets", just think about this:

 

I am already a working CFI. I am certain that I will make it to the next step, and the next, and the next. So what would I gain by voicing my concern over this obvious abuse? If anything, it would help ME to leave it alone, and actually HOPE that the program gets cancelled. That will be less future competition for me as I progress up the chain.

 

That only leaves one reason. I truly care about the program and the future of the program to allow future veterans the same opportunity that I have had. If you are still trying to convince yourself that it's ok for you to utilize these businesses, than you cannot say that you care about the veterans that will...........try to...........come behind you.

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A bit of exaggeration and desperation:

 

"We'd be done," Sean Reid, the owner of Utah-based Upper Limit Aviation, said in an interview about the proposal this month. "I can't think of a single company that wouldn't be put out of business."

 

This is good, too:

 

 

The flight companies say the helicopter industry is dominated by older pilots who learned to fly in the military during the Vietnam War and that their retirements will result in a national shortage of pilots.

 

Edited to tone it down.

Edited by helonorth
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