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Selected, am I doing it for the right reason?


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Lottsa good advice. Especially the part about don't judge the Army according to experience with recruitment process. I know some really sharp recruiters, but...

 

The Navy builds the best all around aviators, and they live better than any other branch. Except maybe, the Air Force, but I'm not certain the USAF is a real branch of the military.

 

See above for Marines, except for living well. Also very small in comparison, which has it's good points.

 

The Army is big, lots of opportunity. If you want to fly helicopters, it is the branch that turned out Kelly, Brady and Novosel (Although I think Novosel was Air Corp/Air Force first) and others.Those are old Army, today's Army is magnitudes better than that Vietnam-era Army in most ways.

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Do warrant officers mostly fly as opposed to leading and managing soldiers? I know that in the Navy and Marines you'll be an officer first and pilot second. What attracted me about being a warrant officer in the Army was the idea that I would be a pilot first and specialize in that for my career. Do warrants fly way more than Marine and Navy pilots? I read that Navy and MC pilots rarely fly during primary while warrants spend a 1/2 day in class and 1/2 day on the flight line during flight school. The idea of being a pilot in the Marines and Navy is awesome but if you don't get to actually fly very much I'd way rather actually be flying in the Army.

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Do warrant officers mostly fly as opposed to leading and managing soldiers? I know that in the Navy and Marines you'll be an officer first and pilot second. What attracted me about being a warrant officer in the Army was the idea that I would be a pilot first and specialize in that for my career. Do warrants fly way more than Marine and Navy pilots? I read that Navy and MC pilots rarely fly during primary while warrants spend a 1/2 day in class and 1/2 day on the flight line during flight school. The idea of being a pilot in the Marines and Navy is awesome but if you don't get to actually fly very much I'd way rather actually be flying in the Army.

 

I would not advise you to join the Army merely for the extra flight time as opposed to the Navy and the USMC. Warrant Officers have additional duties that take them out of the aircraft.

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Plan on peacetime Army helicopter flying of about 120 hours a year, give or take.

 

TAC jets in the USMC wont do much better. KC130 guys? A lot more.

 

I would think REALLY, REALLY, think hard about turnout down an SNA slot. REALLY hard.

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Wouldn't it be a mistake to join the Marine Corps and want to fly as well then because they send their aviators to OCS then 6 months of infantry training (the basic school). I want to be a pilot and be as good at that as I can, I don't have the desire to command an air wing or get paid more as a commissioned officer. I am fine with any additional duties I need to perform but would like to do my best and fly

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Isn't flying for the Army badass? I'm sure some of you pilots fly in SOAR carrying rangers or CAG on the skids of your little birds. I don't understand why you guys think the Navy would be better. Fly in the Army, maybe get to fly medevac, chance to fly for the special forces, do the DCA Aviator program with the coast guard, fly search and rescue. What an amazing career and a life well spent. Am I missing something?

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Hey man, you have choices some of us only dreamed of. Have I had a good time? Yes. I was an Kiowa pilot, and now I am a Chinook Instructor Pilot. Its a satisfying job.

 

But its not all rainbows and sunshine.

Edited by akscott60
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Isn't flying for the Army badass? I'm sure some of you pilots fly in SOAR carrying rangers or CAG on the skids of your little birds. I don't understand why you guys think the Navy would be better. Fly in the Army, maybe get to fly medevac, chance to fly for the special forces, do the DCA Aviator program with the coast guard, fly search and rescue. What an amazing career and a life well spent. Am I missing something?

I'll tell us a story about when I got accepted in WOFT while in the Marines. I scheduled a fam flight in a CH-53 for myself and fellow controllers. I got to sit jump seat between the pilots up front. They commented on what a good program WOFT was. The XO in the right seat made a comment that I'd actually get to fly, unlike him. It was like his first flight in a long time. What does he have to look for after XO? A bunch of courses to attend that have very little to do with flying. If you can put up with that, then by all means go Marines. If you want to concentrate on flying, I'd lean towards WOFT.

 

You've got a lot of Army Aviators on here that are telling you to go Marines because they believe in the typical "the grass is greener on the other side." It's not. We all complain about where we are and wish we were somewhere else. Same thing when it comes to duty stations; we complain about our current one and the previous one is always better.

 

EVERYTHING gets old after awhile. The reality never exceeds your dream of what military aviation is. It's hard work, a lot of sitting around and very little gratitude. Being commissioned in the Marines doesn't give you any special privledges other than more pay. You're just another aviator wearing a flight suit just like every other service. You have all the BS additional duties that warrants have and then get sent to non flying courses. In the Army, if you play your cards right, you can stay in a flying position as a staff aviator.

 

Also, you all compete for the same jobs when you get out. A former Marine with 2,000 hrs isn't going to get hired over an Army aviator with 2,500 hrs. It's experience (hours) not branch of service that matters. I work with guys from all services.

 

So, if you want jets, or you think the Marines are somehow better than the Army, then go SNA.

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I'll tell us a story about when I got accepted in WOFT while in the Marines. I scheduled a fam flight in a CH-53 for myself and fellow controllers. I got to sit jump seat between the pilots up front. They commented on what a good program WOFT was. The XO in the right seat made a comment that I'd actually get to fly, unlike him. It was like his first flight in a long time. What does he have to look for after XO? A bunch of courses to attend that have very little to do with flying. If you can put up with that, then by all means go Marines. If you want to concentrate on flying, I'd lean towards WOFT.

 

You've got a lot of Army Aviators on here that are telling you to go Marines because they believe in the typical "the grass is greener on the other side." It's not. We all complain about where we are and wish we were somewhere else. Same thing when it comes to duty stations; we complain about our current one and the previous one is always better.

 

EVERYTHING gets old after awhile. The reality never exceeds your dream of what military aviation is. It's hard work, a lot of sitting around and very little gratitude. Being commissioned in the Marines doesn't give you any special privledges other than more pay. You're just another aviator wearing a flight suit just like every other service. You have all the BS additional duties that warrants have and then get sent to non flying courses. In the Army, if you play your cards right, you can stay in a flying position as a staff aviator.

 

Also, you all compete for the same jobs when you get out. A former Marine with 2,000 hrs isn't going to get hired over an Army aviator with 2,500 hrs. It's experience (hours) not branch of service that matters. I work with guys from all services.

 

So, if you want jets, or you think the Marines are somehow better than the Army, then go SNA.

Thanks for that, Velocity. I'd hate to be that guy who says "yeah I really love my job the only problem is I never get to do it."

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Isn't flying for the Army badass? I'm sure some of you pilots fly in SOAR carrying rangers or CAG on the skids of your little birds. I don't understand why you guys think the Navy would be better. Fly in the Army, maybe get to fly medevac, chance to fly for the special forces, do the DCA Aviator program with the coast guard, fly search and rescue. What an amazing career and a life well spent. Am I missing something?

 

I can assure you that if you want to be in the 160th SOAR you will have just as many additional duties as everyone else, if not more. You will spend more time in front of a computer then you will flying. Yes the mission is amazing, that mission comes at a price and a lot of sacrifice.

 

Listen, after you have been there and done that, it's about the endstate of your career. Life and your career is more than just flying a couple bad ass missions.

 

You are coming at it from an applicants perspective, I understand what it's like to be in your shoes.

 

At the end of the day, choose the career for what it is, a career. What you shouldn't do is choose a career for the amount of time you will get. I can assure you if you do 20 in any branch, you will be marketable when you get out.

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I can assure you that if you want to be in the 160th SOAR you will have just as many additional duties as everyone else, if not more. You will spend more time in front of a computer then you will flying. Yes the mission is amazing, that mission comes at a price and a lot of sacrifice.

 

Listen, after you have been there and done that, it's about the endstate of your career. Life and your career is more than just flying a couple bad ass missions.

 

You are coming at it from an applicants perspective, I understand what it's like to be in your shoes.

 

At the end of the day, choose the career for what it is, a career. What you shouldn't do is choose a career for the amount of time you will get. I can assure you if you do 20 in any branch, you will be marketable when you get out.

In the Marines I would be a Marine and then a pilot, I would have to learn how to lead a platoon of Marines in combat, I would do B billets like forward air controller and maybe a tour as an officer selection officer. In the Army I would be a pilot for my whole career and not have to lead troops and get promoted out of the cockpit. Right?

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You are an officer first, always.

 

Promoted out of the cockpit? It happens. When you leave the company and go to battalion, you will fly less. Staff guys fly less. And yes, there are TONS of staff Warrant Officers.

 

TBS is just a school, you are not going to be an infantry officer. Dont believe the hype. Hell, you go thru BCT and WOCS, then WOBC as an Army Warrant. Plenty of schooling that has zero to do with flying.

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You are an officer first, always.

 

Promoted out of the cockpit? It happens. When you leave the company and go to battalion, you will fly less. Staff guys fly less. And yes, there are TONS of staff Warrant Officers.

 

TBS is just a school, you are not going to be an infantry officer. Dont believe the hype. Hell, you go thru BCT and WOCS, then WOBC as an Army Warrant. Plenty of schooling that has zero to do with flying.

Do those schools emphasize that you are a leader of soldiers first and foremost? The Marines really push that. They will say "you are all here because you want to lead Marines." Regardless if you're a flight contract or infantry contract. Everyone nods their head but the truth is if Naval Aviation didn't exist they wouldn't have even applied. I thought that a warrant in the Army was a specialist not a jack of all trades like the MC expects it's officers to be.

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The whole concept of the "flying only warrant officer" is slowly fading. We are becoming more and more like RLOs, but with less pay.

 

Supporting the ground force and the ground force commander is the reason Army Aviation exists. Much like USMC aviation. Dont forget this is a military branch, and what we do is more than just fly for fun.

As for the TBS, I wouldnt want to go. Believe me. But my father is retired USMC as a fighter pilot. They are good dudes.

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Do those schools emphasize that you are a leader of soldiers first and foremost? The Marines really push that. They will say "you are all here because you want to lead Marines." Regardless if you're a flight contract or infantry contract. Everyone nods their head but the truth is if Naval Aviation didn't exist they wouldn't have even applied. I thought that a warrant in the Army was a specialist not a jack of all trades like the MC expects it's officers to be.

Yes they do. BCT teaches you that you are a soldier first. No one there cares you're on a WOFT contract. You're just another Joe Schmoe private even if you came in as an E4. Everyone is treated the same. WOCS is all about being a Soldier first and a Warrant Officer second (emphasis on your specialty being a distant third). Warrant Officers still lead; perhaps a little differently, but you will still find WOs in all sorts of non-flying billets, staff positions, hell even occasionally as PLs, etc. Particularly as we transition into a garrison Army, emphasis is being placed on "broadening assignments" that take you out of the cockpit.

 

I'm not going to say the grass is greener necessarily anywhere else. But, take it from someone who was probably one of the most motivated folks to get in this program--it's not all roses and sunshine. I chose the Army because I wanted helicopters (other reasons too but the Army was the only one where you would be guaranteed some sort of Helicopter at selection). When I selected? I almost got saddled with a C-12. It's frightening how quick things move sometimes and frustrating at how slow it moves at other times.

 

That's just the reason you don't see a helluva lot of "hooah" here. It's not to say we don't love our jobs. Heck, I'm still in friggin flight school and have yet to experience the real Army. But like Joe, I think, said, dreams and reality never quite match up as well as you'd hope.

 

In my personal opinion, your best bet is the one which leaves the most doors open. If you went Marines, how easy/difficult would it be to transition to the Army later down the line and resign your commission to go WO if you ended up unhappy there? On the flip side, if you went Army, how easy/difficult would it be to try and transition to the Marines or the Navy and get OCS and do some sort of lateral move over there?

 

Whatever you choose, make your selection and throw your heart and soul into it. Living life thinking about "what if"s will only tear you apart.

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Also, are you on AirWarrior at all? At least I think that's what it's called. It's the naval aviation version of VR. Ask them the same question, see what kind of responses you get.

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Do those schools emphasize that you are a leader of soldiers first and foremost? The Marines really push that. They will say "you are all here because you want to lead Marines." Regardless if you're a flight contract or infantry contract. Everyone nods their head but the truth is if Naval Aviation didn't exist they wouldn't have even applied. I thought that a warrant in the Army was a specialist not a jack of all trades like the MC expects it's officers to be.

They actually teach that that everyone is a leader regardless of rank. Makes you wonder who's following if everyone is leading. 😀

 

The differences aren't like night and day. Ascott is correct. Bunch of duties / courses to attend out of cockpit in the Army. It's not like civilian aviation where almost everything you do centers around flying. The Army does want a well rounded aviator.

 

My last bit of advice would be to search HMLA / HMM / HMLAT squadrons online. Read the bios of the COs to get a picture of what you're career path would be like. Some even list their total hours. I can tell you this. None of the ones I read had more hours in 20 yrs than I got in 12 yrs in the Army.

 

Is flight time everything? Heck no but I'd rather be in a position of flying too much and wishing for a break, than hardly flying at all and wishing I were up there.

Edited by Velocity173
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I thought that a warrant in the Army was a specialist not a jack of all trades like the MC expects it's officers to be.

 

I think you have listened to people that have taken the whole tactical and technical proficient expert a little too seriously. The idea that Warrants "do nothing else but fly" is just false. Some of the duties that a Warrant may have in a line company include but are not limited to.

 

Physical Security Officer

Key and Lock Custodian

Safety Officer

Opsec Officer

Comsec Officer

Supply Officer

Fire Warden

HAZMAT Officer

Air Movement Coordination Officer

MWR Officer

 

the list goes on and on. On the Contrary, we are a jack of all trades, I have seen a Warrant literally do everything a regular officer has done with the exception of commands, even that happens.

 

You will need to attend non flying courses like Warrant Officer Advanced Course, this course is 9 weeks and actually makes you uncurrent in the aircraft. It covers things like military ethics and leadership. Not much to do with the cockpit.

 

Fact is like most people have said, this is the Military. We effect direct line ground combat. Many of us are former Infantry, Special Forces, Rangers, Artillery, Cavalry ect... Most of the people I know have served in Combat on the ground before they went to flight school.

 

When I fly, I think like an Infantryman when I decide how to support the ground force commander. Like everyone has said, it isn't a flying club for you to rack up hours.

 

Even if you are flying, most of the time you are planning, briefing and being evaluated on your decision making skills, knowledge, proficiency or a combination of all of it.

 

I'm not saying all this to steer you away from the Army. I think you should know what you are getting into before you jump into the Army 2 feet forward and think your going to be flying DUSTOFF missions in Afghanistan a week after you sign the dotted line. It is a great job it has its PROs and CONs just like every other job.

 

Only you can decide what you want, I hope you are on the NAVY and USMC Aviator forums getting their insight. If you are LINK!

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If your sole motivation isn't to crush the enemies of the United States and/or support those who do, you're wrong and have no business joining the Army in any capacity. This isn't exclusive to former grunts. I know street to seaters who are absolutely motivated to help get that proverbial 19 year old ground pounder back home to Mama. My point is that you should check your motivations to ensure that altruism plays a significant role and that this isn't only for you to advance yourself in life.

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Are you the OP in the AW link? If so, I think your perception of warrant officer life is a bit off.

 

"Quiet Professionals" doesn't mean you don't lead. Doesn't mean you go flying and have no responsibility. Sure doesn't mean you don't get up and give classes / briefs. You'll give a crapload of those.

 

Once again, it's not night and day between the services. The flying positions (FAC1,2,3) vs non operational differences would be best compared to an RLO in the Army. As a former SP I had plenty of staff RLOs to keep track of. Some of them spent significant time outside the cockpit. I would review their records and shake my head. 15 years and only 370 hrs??? What the heck were you doing in Africa for 2 years??? ROTC instructor for 2 years??? You see all sorts of crap that has nothing to do with flying. They're career building positions. A necessary evil of getting promoted as an RLO. Unfortunately it was part of my responsibility to get them progressed and make sure they remain current. Trying to figure out if they even still made their "gates" over time for flight pay made my head hurt. As a warrant, odds of you ever attended the courses they did or filling the billets they filled would be slim.

 

So yeah, the differences aren't that great. I think the Army edges them out slightly for staying in the cockpit and not having the pressures of assuming command.

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