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I like the spin of this thread

You also don't have to repeat yourself as much when you're a civilian pilot .

Ok, a 1.3 multiplier is going to be too much. When I taught civilian, we had two Hobbs meters, one on oil pressure for billing the students (and logging time), and one on the collective for maintenan

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I really appreciate this write-up, especially as a new 64 pilot. I graduated Fligh school this past June and have been trying to get serious about logging my flight time. I decided to keep a logbook that I log per 95-1 to ensure that flight ops is accurate. I also decided to keep a logbook to log per civilian requirements, which I'm about to start.

 

I have been confused about logging the PIC for the civilian side. I made RL1 at my unit this past November roughly. So I should only be logging PIC in my civilian logbook for the time of the flight I am the sole manipulator of the controls right?

 

Or per your write-up. Once I made RL1 I can log PIC for the entirety of the flight, including when I'm not even on the controls, because I'm in a PIC training program? This one reason is the reason I haven't started my civilian logbook because everyone I talk to at the unit logs their flight completely different.

 

And like you said almost everyone says to log total flight time per 95-1 and times it by like 1.3 when I get out of the army.

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lol, when logging your actual flight times is just too hard, just multiply it all! What a joke.

 

Not as easy as that.

 

1) Be able to justify everything you've done. If your military records are 100 hours shorter than your civilian, be able to explain why. (The fact is, Army logs time COMPLETELY differently than FAA.) I disagree with a random multiplier of 1.3 It's FAR too much. If your prospective employer wants to do so, let them. But I can't justify it, so I don't.

 

2) As has been said before, if you're adjusting your times to meet the FAA definition, and you're JUST BARELY making the minimums, it's probably going to be looked at a lot closer than if you're several hundred hours over (in which case your military records probably show the same thing. Though PIC will NOT be the same.)

 

3) If you say you have 2000 hours, fly like you have 2000 hours. If you're flying like you have 500, it'll be apparent.

 

4) The sad fact is, and this is a biggie: we don't get any instruction on how to log a flight, especially per the FAA. I was a rated pilot for more than 5 years before I realized that NVG was Night, just because I flew after dark. It just didn't occur to me, because in the Army, you have to pick one. You don't fly actual instrument, at night, under NVGs... you have to pick. Probably whichever one you most need to meet your semi-annual requirements.

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So since we're breaching the discussion, I've seen the big distinction is in how civilians typically log their time via the hobbs meter which, if you're going by the FAR is incorrect. This would probably make sense for the 1.3 multiplier. But with the military logging from takeoff to engine shutdown, and the civilian from moving under its own power to coming to a rest after landing, it really brings the difference down to almost nothing.

 

In response to napoleonpp - Congratulations on making RL1. The way I'm reading the FAR, it doesn't specify that you have to be the sole manipulator of the flight controls to log PIC time - 61.51(e)(1)(iv)(A - B ) just says that you can log when you're acting as the Pilot-in-Command under the supervision...etc.

 

One technique I've heard other 64 guys use is that when they're flying in the back seat, they count that as all PIC time in their civilian logbooks, since it's the station typically occupied by the PIC. That was typically downrange when the front seater is primarily focused on the TADS though, so I would say, use your better judgement based on each flight.

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Wait, how is logging Hobbs time incorrect? I know this has been beaten to death and back with opinions about "fair" but the regs say when the aircraft moves for the purpose of flight and that's when the Hobbs works. You can't run up on the ground with the collective locked down for 2 hours and log that. Logging Hobbs is the most accurate assuming it's a collective activated Hobbs.

 

Sure if the engine is running you're responsible for the aircraft and you're in command but you aren't flying. You aren't logging "I'm responsible" time, you're logging flight time. I'm also responsible for that helicopter and the safety of others while putting it in the hangar and refueling...

 

If you sit in your running car in the driveway for an hour do you consider that an hour of drive time?

Edited by zippiesdrainage
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Zippies, I believe he is referring to the many many Hobbs out there that start ticking when the engine is started, as opposed to a collective Hobbs.

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Zippies, I believe he is referring to the many many Hobbs out there that start ticking when the engine is started, as opposed to a collective Hobbs.

 

I didn't know the Military used Robbies?

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I didn't know the Military used Robbies?

 

How is this related to what she said?

 

FWIW, we don't really have any sort of meters to log time with. You (or your crew chief) logs takeoff and shutdown time. The A/L UH-60s have a IVHMS that I believe starts time when the wow switch opens the first time, and stops when...the generators come offline? I don't remember; it's been a few years.

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How is this related to what she said?

 

FWIW, we don't really have any sort of meters to log time with. You (or your crew chief) logs takeoff and shutdown time. The A/L UH-60s have a IVHMS that I believe starts time when the wow switch opens the first time, and stops when...the generators come offline? I don't remember; it's been a few years.

Because Robbies are about the only thing out there with an oil pressure Hobbs. Everything else is collective Hobbs.

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Ok, a 1.3 multiplier is going to be too much. When I taught civilian, we had two Hobbs meters, one on oil pressure for billing the students (and logging time), and one on the collective for maintenance purposes. AR 95-1 starts time when you lift off the ground, and ends when you shutdown the engine or change crews. The multiplier, if you wanted to do a multiplier, would really be more like 1.1. I would be careful about multiplying anything. Probably better to advise a civilian employer of your military hours, and how the time is calculated. Better to be a better pilot than your hours would show than worse. Most helicopter operators are familiar with Army Aviation (at least the big ones) anyway.

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Because Robbies are about the only thing out there with an oil pressure Hobbs. Everything else is collective Hobbs.

Okay...but I said nothing about the military using them. The OP was referring to how technically civilians logging Hobbs time is incorrect. A lot of FW drivers have oil pressure Hobbs too. I was a civilian CFI before I ever went .mil; I was just clarifying which Hobbs he was talking about. Obviously collective Hobbs is the most accurate but that's not what he was referring to.

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Ok, a 1.3 multiplier is going to be too much. When I taught civilian, we had two Hobbs meters, one on oil pressure for billing the students (and logging time), and one on the collective for maintenance purposes. AR 95-1 starts time when you lift off the ground, and ends when you shutdown the engine or change crews. The multiplier, if you wanted to do a multiplier, would really be more like 1.1. I would be careful about multiplying anything. Probably better to advise a civilian employer of your military hours, and how the time is calculated. Better to be a better pilot than your hours would show than worse. Most helicopter operators are familiar with Army Aviation (at least the big ones) anyway.

 

Better bet is to not use a multiplier at all. You run into a weird problem where the longer the flight is, the more extraneous time you add. I regularly flew 6-7 hour days in Afghanistan, getting hot gas all day. Those shouldn't be an additional 1/2 hour plus of time, just because. Even worse at a 1.3 multiple...

 

Just keep a civil logbook. Let CAFRS and flight ops worry about your military time. If you have time missing in your closeout that you needed for minimums, that you thought you flew, it would likely be because someone entered the wrong PID, not because they logged .6 vs .9. If you seem short, or not meeting your minimums, you investigate DAYS you flew, not time.

 

ARMS now requires all crewmembers to have access to their own CAFRS, and you can run your own reports. It's not a big deal. Check an individual -12 report weekly. If you're missing day you know you flew... figure it out. It's not rocket science.

 

If you've been flying for a year or two and trying to figure it out, you're not going to add all that much. You haven't been flying that long. If you've been flying for a long time, it doesn't matter, because you probably have the time you'd need anyway.

 

I did spend the time and fix mine because I was unemployed and bored. Using common sense (I knew EVERY first flight of the day in Kuwait started time immediately anyway; we had to back taxi out of our spots at a hover, for example. Also, every TH-67 flight started when we lifted off. I wasn't getting anything from there either. I only added .1 or so on flights that I knew for a fact I ground taxied out to do checks on, before taking off. It wasn't much...)

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Everything in here is based on personal opinion and experience. Just hoping to help my fellow veterans.

 

pdf.gif Military to Civilian Helicopter Pilot Lessons Learned.pdf

 

Be wary of hearsay regulations – ex. “Dude, just multiply all your time by 1.3” or “cross country time is anything outside of the local area”.

 

Speaking specifically to cross country time, it is important to understand what it is. The FAR defines cross country as: “…includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 25 nautical miles from the original point of departure.”

 

You should key in on the terms, ‘point of landing’ and ‘straight line distance’ when extrapolating which of your flights qualify. In Barney-speak, you have to land somewhere else more than 25 miles away from where you left. I’ve heard things like, ‘outside the local area is cross country’, or ‘if you fly 25 miles, you’re good’. Be wary of hearsay regulations.

 

Your paper, Lessons Learned, is correct about the hearsay regarding “Dude, just multiply all your time by 1.3”; however, it is technically inconsistent with the full meaning of the regulation regarding cross country. The latter part of the hearsay could be considered correct, “cross country time is anything outside of the local area”.

 

There are multiple definitions of cross-country time, that you can legally use to your advantage, in 14 C.F.R. §61.1 , and these definitions apply differently based on how the cross-country time is being used. Section 61.1, states the general definition of cross-country time:

 

§61.1 Applicability and definitions.

 

Cross-country time means—

 

Except as provided in paragraphs (ii) through (vi) of this definition, time acquired during flight—

 

[A] Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;

Conducted in an aircraft;

[C] That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and

[D] That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

 

Stop, unless the time is being used to meet the aeronautical experience for a certificate or rating, that is the general definition. Some people disregard that term “except” or “except as provided” in the regulations.

 

So when you provide your prospective employer with your resume, you’re doing yourself a disservice when you only include cross country that is 25 miles for more. It is to your advantage to use the maximum available under the regulations.

 

Some may choose to use 25 miles as their own personal preference; however, all should know the correct interpretation of cross country time regardless of how you choose to log it.

 

Ref: Legal Interpretations & Chief Counsel's Opinions - Louis Glenn - (2009)

Edited by iChris
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Ok, I've got oer 300 hours of cross country time by the 25nm definition. Other than getting an ATP what jobs are there out there who care how much cross country time I have, and just how much do they want?

 

Part 135 mins.

 

I think it's more an issue of going to a prospective employer with "125" cross country hours, it looks like you've hardly ever left the traffic pattern.

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Elwood, thanks for thathe thorough write up. Did you encounter any former Army pilots during your transition?

 

One thing I'd like to highlight is this, civilian pilots may resent the fact that I was spoon fed. But, we volunteerd to defend our country, fly in terrible weather, under fire and do it all while being away from our families. By no means does this mean we deserve special recognition or take away from civilian pilot's importance.

 

I worked for every flight hour I have through studying, planning, briefing and waiting for years to have the seniority to get up on the flight schedule.

 

I'll note that checking your ego at the door is important but so is appreciating different talents from different backgrounds and not being jealous of how one accumulated their flight hours.

 

How was the written ATP process? Would you recommend getting that sooner rather than later, even years from retirement?

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How was the written ATP process? Would you recommend getting that sooner rather than later, even years from retirement?

 

Joe,

 

If you've got an O6 who will sign off on it, you can get the examiner to sit in the back of a blackhawk. As long as the flight is being done for your normal APART rides, and not just for your own benefit, it (theoretically) can be done. (See the Summary of change in 95-1)

 

If I was still flying Blackhawks, that's what I'd (try to) do. If I go back to flying them...that's what I'll (try to) do.

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Dang I wish I could do that, would be hard in a 64 haha.

 

I have decided to keep two logbooks. One per 95-1, to ensure the accuracy of my 759s. One logged per FAA for when I get out. I am logging it according to Part 61. It says you can log PIC when you are the sole manipulator of the controls, which was all I was planning to log as my PIC time in my civilian logbook.

 

"(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;"

 

However according to your write-up I can log all my time once I make RL1 as PIC in my civilian logbook, due to the fact that I am in an "approved Pilot in Command training program". Would future employers never wonder why I have 130 SIC time, but I have 2,000 hours of PIC time? Sorry I just want to ensure that I don't log 12 years of flight time the wrong way.

 

"(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided—

The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command is undergoing an approved pilot in command training program that includes ground and flight training on the following areas of operation—"

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Ross, good read and I was tracking most of what was written. What I have found on the fixed wing side, very similar to your notes, is the whole networking at events (OBAP, WIA, etc). I initially didn't think this would be as important on the rotary side. My own networking was to keep tabs on guys that got flying jobs after the military, especially my former SPs, many are chief pilots now.

 

The CFI gouge will hopefully benefit a buddy that is doing the Robbie thing, although I think he is too far down the rabbit hole to turn around. Just helped him fly off the SFAR req's, my 1st time in a R22.

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