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I have my helo ifr rating and im thinking of doing an add on to get my fixed wing ifr rating (already have pple in fixed wing). Ive been doing my 6 approaches in a helo simulator but i heard i could also do them in an airplane simulator and that will count for helo. If thats the case, could i do 6 approaches in an airplane sim and stay current in both category?

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Ive been doing my 6 approaches in a helo simulator but i heard i could also do them in an airplane simulator and that will count for helo.

 

If thats the case, could i do 6 approaches in an airplane sim and stay current in both category?

 

After researching the link above, what’s your verdict? Is what you heard true? Can you mix the categories?

 

61.57[c][2] Use of a flight simulator or flight training device for maintaining instrument experience.

 

Within the 6 calendar months preceding the month of the flight, that person performed and logged at least the following tasks and iterations in a flight simulator or flight training device, provided the flight simulator or flight training device represents the category of aircraft for the instrument rating privileges to be maintained and involves having performed the following—

 

(i) Six instrument approaches.

 

(ii) Holding procedures and tasks.

 

(iii) Intercepting and tracking courses through the use of navigational electronic systems.

Edited by iChris
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I get a bit annoyed when people ask questions on the internet that are obviously regulatory in nature without bothering to do any legwork themselves, especially if they are a rated aviator. It's one thing to be baffled by the lawyer-ese. It's quite another to let somebody like Chris take time out of their day to delve into this stuff if the OP didn't even bother to crack open a FAR|AIM. That being said, I'm not too far from being in the same boat as the OP, so it was actually nice to have some motivation to look into it myself. I just wish it wasn't such a lazy question. We can do better.

 

It's clear in subparagraphs 2 onward, i.e.:

  • provided the flight simulator or flight training device represents the category of aircraft for the instrument rating privileges to be maintained

that if you're doing it in a simulator or ATD, it has to represent the category of aircraft for which you are maintaining (or regaining) IFR currency.

 

Subparagraph 1 is much less clear. In the previous paragraphs, it specifies all the way down to type (if a type is required), and in subsequent subparagraphs, it specifies that it must be in category. In subparagraph 1, however, it lists the categories and merely says "as appropriate." I haven't found an AC or LOI that addresses IFR currency for more than one category.

 

I am of the opinion that anything not strictly forbidden is permitted (rancher's rules apply), and I had a DPE tell me to always interpret the regulations as much in my favor as possible, so I think this omission is significant. I believe it to mean that if you conduct your approaches et al in, say, an airplane, and you are rated in both airplanes and helicopters, that you have maintained your IFR currency for both categories. This would not be true if you used a simulator or ATD for any of the required maneuvers, you would, at the very least, have to conduct one maneuver in the sim/ATD for each of the other categories you needed to maintain currency for.

 

That is, at least, my interpretation, not that mine matters to you. Only yours does, until you get ramp checked anyway. Having a leg to stand on, i.e. being able to cite the FARs when questioned and your reasons for interpreting them in the way that you do, will at least lessen the pain if an ASI/DPE happens to disagree with you. You shouldn't be telling them that a helpful guy from the internet told you what it meant.

Edited by kona4breakfast
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Ive been doing my 6 approaches in a helo simulator but i heard i could also do them in an airplane simulator and that will count for helo.

 

 

Not according to the regulation, which stipulates that the simulator must represent the category of aircraft applicable to the privileges sought; if you want currency in an airplane, then you'll need an airplane simulator. Currency in a helicopter, then you'll need a rotorcraft simulator.

 

If you do it in the actual aircraft, you'll need it in an aircraft appropriate to the privileges. Airplane for airplane, rotorcraft for helicopter.

 

For further clarification, a visit to the FAA chief legal counsel's interpretations is in order.

 

Until 2009, the regulation under 61.57( c )(1) specifically stated aircraft category, whereas the regulatory wording after that time was changed to read "as appropriate." The intent of the regulation was not changed, however, and the FAA still interprets the regulation as meaning that instrument experience must be specific to the aircraft category, as outlined in their interpretation given to the Ventura County Sheriff's Dept Aviation Unit: http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2012/williams-venturacountysheriff%20-%20(2012)%20legal%20interpretation.pdf

 

Specific from the letter of interpretation, "Accordingly, instrument experience in a helicopter does not carry over to an airplane. Instrument recency experience is a specific privilege applicable only to the category of aircraft in which the pilot has maintained instrument recency experience."

Edited by avbug
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Not for nothing, but it has been openly stated that the FARs/CFRs are purposely written to be vague enough to be interpreted any way the FAA wants to.

Instrument procedures are identical with few exceptions between the categories.

Especially when being flown on autopilot.

Another example of a lack of common sense regulations.

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Not for nothing, but it has been openly stated that the FARs/CFRs are purposely written to be vague enough to be interpreted any way the FAA wants to.

Instrument procedures are identical with few exceptions between the categories.

Especially when being flown on autopilot.

Another example of a lack of common sense regulations.

 

 

The Administrator has consistently long held that instrument privileges are particular to the category of aircraft. The regulation has always been clear on that subject, and the interpretation thereof reflects no ambiguity or change.

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The whole point of Vmin is that you basically cease to become a helicopter and have flight characteristics similar to an airplane.

 

Must suck to be an glider instrument pilot.

 

There is no glider instrument rating. Instrument ratings are applied to private and commercial pilot certificates for Airplane, Helicopter, and Powered-Lift.

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Ive been doing my 6 approaches in a helo simulator but i heard i could also do them in an airplane simulator and that will count for helo.

 

This also brings up another point, how have you been logging IFR currency accomplished via simulator under §61.57? Is what you heard off the mark in more ways than one?

 

Some instructors and pilot also have the misconception that if an instructor is not required to be present when an airman is performing the approaches in an aircraft, then they should not be required to be present when an airman is performing the same tasks in a flight simulator.

 

§61.51(g)(4) - A person can use time in a flight simulator, flight training device, or aviation training device for acquiring instrument aeronautical experience for a pilot certificate, rating, or instrument recency experience, provided an authorized instructor is present to observe that time and signs the person's logbook or training record to verify the time and the content of the training session.

 

The whole point of Vmin

 

Specifically, to meet the additional IFR controllability and stability requirements of Part 27 Appendix B or Part 29 Appendix B as a as appropriate.

Edited by iChris
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http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=46267c3e2790ac77aca646f1a1be27cf&mc=true&node=se14.2.61_15&rgn=div8

 

14 CFR 61.5( b )(8):

 

 

 

§61.5 Certificates and ratings issued under this part.

( b ) The following ratings are placed on a pilot certificate (other than student pilot) when an applicant satisfactorily accomplishes the training and certification requirements for the rating sought:

 

(8) Instrument ratings (on private and commercial pilot certificates only)—

(i) Instrument—Airplane.

(ii) Instrument—Helicopter.

(iii) Instrument—Powered-lift.

 

14 CFR 61.5( c )(4):

 

 

§61.5 Certificates and ratings issued under this part.

© The following ratings are placed on a flight instructor certificate when an applicant satisfactorily accomplishes the training and certification requirements for the rating sought:

 

(4) Instrument ratings—

(i) Instrument—Airplane.

(ii) Instrument—Helicopter.

(iii) Instrument—Powered-lift.

 

 

Edited by avbug
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61.57©(6) doesn't make much sense then.

 

It does when you look into it. In order to fly a glider under IFR, you have to have a glider category rating on your pilot certificate and an airplane instrument rating.

 

Glider - Instrument doesn't exist. You're using the airplane instrument rating privileges to make it happen

 

 

 

61.3

(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:

(1) The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and instrument rating on that person's pilot certificate for any airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift being flown;

(2) An airline transport pilot certificate with the appropriate aircraft category, class, and type rating (if required) for the aircraft being flown;

(3) For a glider, a pilot certificate with a glider category rating and an airplane instrument rating; or

(4) For an airship, a commercial pilot certificate with a lighter-than-air category rating and airship class rating.

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The Administrator has consistently long held that instrument privileges are particular to the category of aircraft. The regulation has always been clear on that subject, and the interpretation thereof reflects no ambiguity or change.

Nevertheless...

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Nevertheless...

 

 

Never the less what?

 

 

"The Administrator" sounds like a villain from the Adam West-era Batman.

 

 

The Administrator is the FAA Administrator, who is charged by an act of congress to run the agency. Everything that the FAA does is done on behalf of the FAA Administrator, and the Administrator is most frequently referred to in regulation, legal interpretation, advisory circulars, handbooks, and other documents, as "the Administrator."

 

You are not familiar with this?

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"The Administrator has consistently long held that instrument privileges are particular to the category of aircraft. The regulation has always been clear on that subject, and the interpretation thereof reflects no ambiguity or change."

 

Except when it doesn't....

 

"For a glider, a pilot certificate with a glider category rating and an airplane instrument rating"

 

Of course I know who the Administrator is. I didn't elaborate because it was a joke that wasn't all that funny and this glider talk has jacked the thread enough.

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"The Administrator has consistently long held that instrument privileges are particular to the category of aircraft. The regulation has always been clear on that subject, and the interpretation thereof reflects no ambiguity or change."

 

Except when it doesn't....

 

"For a glider, a pilot certificate with a glider category rating and an airplane instrument rating"

 

 

 

 

Negative.

 

In the case of a glider, the instrument privileges are still category specific, as previously stated; they are applicable to airplane category, as there's no instrument rating for gliders. (think about it: how are you going to fly the missed approach?). The instrument privileges are still specific to the category. If you wish to use a simulator for instrument currency, it still needs to be an airplane simulator, as there aren't any glider instrument simulators (with the possible exception of the space shuttle).

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Guest pokey

 

 

(think about it: how are you going to fly the missed approach?). there aren't any glider instrument simulators (with the possible exception of the space shuttle).

 

Fly the missed approach in a Grob motor glider-it's a glider whether the engine is running or not.

 

As for the space shuttle simulator? i hope mom doesn't wake you up this time B4 you finish that story for us.

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Gliders and airplanes are different categories. I understand that you're using airplane-instrument privileges to fly a glider IFR, but that doesn't mean that the FAA's position is coherent and consistent.

 

Personally, I wish there was just one instrument rating, and the only requirement that would be class specific would be that you had to have x hours or y procedures in the sim/simulated IFR/actual IFR in the 6 months preceding prior before carrying passengers, for part 91 of course.

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Gliders and airplanes are different categories. I understand that you're using airplane-instrument privileges to fly a glider IFR, but that doesn't mean that the FAA's position is coherent and consistent.

 

Personally, I wish there was just one instrument rating, and the only requirement that would be class specific would be that you had to have x hours or y procedures in the sim/simulated IFR/actual IFR in the 6 months preceding prior before carrying passengers, for part 91 of course.

 

 

Formerly, 6 hours of instrument flight in six months were required for currency. That was eliminated several years ago, retaining just the approaches, holding, etc.

 

IFR capability is extremely limited for gliders, with the chief reason being record-setting efforts and competitions above FL180 in positive controlled airspace (Class A). Accordingly, no instrument glider rating. An instrument airplane must be held, and currency for that is category specific; instrument privileges specific to the category of instrument rating held; the FAA has always been consistent in this. Instrument Airplane; one must be current in airplane category instrument operations, and if a simulator is used, it must be airplane category. Rotorcraft currency does not count.

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