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Kiowa guy here, passed over for W3 once already and looking at my second board this year. I have been offered a transition to Apaches but among other reasons for not wanting it, I am starting a family and want a break with some stability for a while. Am I shooting myself in the foot for potential National Guard service down the road if I turn this down and get forced out?

Edited by SBuzzkill
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Turning it down I'd be boarded as a 152D (OH-58D Pilot) again which is a guaranteed passover. I believe it's a three year ADSO for AQC. I'm in a good flying job right now and if I get out I have a good chance at some stability flying tours in Vegas, so I'd rather not transition from active duty to the guard. My priority right now is time with my family.

My big question as a two time pass over, is whether or not a guard unit would be able to take me or even want to later on down the road. I'm trying to gather as much info on my options as I can before I make a decision.

Edited by SBuzzkill
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I'm sorry I can't offer much advice in this topic as I'm relatively new to the whole thing and haven't been through it yet. If I however offer you an opportunity if you want to be in AZ, PM me.

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Hopefully someone will be able to give you the information you're looking for, have you spoke to a NG recruiter at all about your situation.

 

As a side question, what are you flying now that the Kiowa is gone.

 

Kiowas. LoL

 

NTC and JRTC are still flying 58Cs and will be for quite a while.

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Kiowa guy here, passed over for W3 once already and looking at my second board this year. I have been offered a transition to Apaches but among other reasons for not wanting it, I am starting a family and want a break with some stability for a while. Am I shooting myself in the foot for potential National Guard service down the road if I turn this down and get forced out?

 

Recently transitioned active duty IP to Guard guy here. Different states of course vary, so your experience may vary, but here's my take on it from having recently done it.

 

It is easier to transition from active duty directly to the Guard than from complete separation to the Guard. My paperwork was in order, I was able to hand carry my flight records, physicals up to date, I offered the gaining unit recency of flight, etc. It was much easier to make contacts through AKO, walk into personnel, and things like that. Further, my gaining unit was able to call to my current unit and get an immediate recommendation. My OERs were current, no lingering questions, nothing. I met with the right people literally while wearing my active duty uniform. Paperwork can already be a nightmare when it is current and easy (easier) to get to. I can only imagine had there been a break in service.

 

On the flip side, I know of not just one or two, but several people, that would very much like to get into the Guard (guys I know here where I'm at and guys I went to flight school with) but that are right now full fledged civilians. It is hard for them to get a call back, they are having a very difficult time getting CAFRS info from active duty, and they basically are having to start over as if a civilian. They have much more of a challenge getting into the unit than I did, and I only made the transition fairly easily because I knew the right people or had the capability on active duty of getting in touch with the right people.

 

My advice is that if you are planning on continuing your service in the Guard, don't delay.

 

As for turning down Apaches, my belief is that it's not an issue that would concern the job or possibility of getting a Guard slot. I know of a couple of Kiowa guys that were pretty much in your same boat. They found their Guard unit and had the Guard pay for their Blackhawk (and in one case C-12) course. It still saves the Guard a ton of money while getting a good amount of experience in return (a lot cheaper than sending a WOC to flight school). While perhaps debatable, being a CW2 is actually a benefit (the Guard promotions are different and being passed over active duty isn't an issue - assuming it's because of the Kiowa issue and not because you were a dirtbag). It's easier to find a job for a CW2 than a CW3 and you give the perception that you've still got some good years left to give the Guard.

 

Again, much of this may vary by state but I think the overall experience is likely similar to others. If I were you (and I'm not) I would turn down the Apaches and find a Guard home without delay. The civilian jobs will be there (assumes you have sufficient hours). No kidding, I turned down 3 actual written job offers to accept the job I took. I left active duty on a Sunday, did my Guard swear in on Monday, and started my civilian job on Tuesday.

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I would proceed with caution....

 

I looked on-line and I could not find the answer, but you need to ensure that WO's are not covered by the Reserve Officer Personnel Management Act of 1996 or ROPMA. ROPMA states that an officer "shall be separated not later than the 9th month after the results of the board are made public for officers that are twice passed over for promotion." The only exception to this is if an officer is within "sanctuary" meaning they have more than 18 yrs of service. So twice passed over officers in the guard and reserves are involuntarily separated also. I have seen O's coming off AD (in the draw down of the mid 90's) who tried to join guard units who cannot because they were twice passed over while on AD.

 

I do agree 100% with UH-60 IP from above that it is much easier to asses into a Guard unit with no break in service. Show up to a guard unit with a current physical, an up slip and your -759 and you have just made the process a whole lot easier for both the unit and yourself. Same with OER's, etc

 

Also, some states may look negatively upon the twice passed over factor; you may only be able to overcome that with a lot of personal interviews and interactions with the unit you are trying to join. Honestly, you will have to sell the fact that it was the elimination of the -58D and a personal career choice, not because you were a dirt-bag who was not retained on AD. Sorry, but true.

 

So back to your original question: My recommendation would be either take the -64 transition and stay in the additional service obligation and then separate or find a guard unit that will take you and separate now. Your option of being 'forced out' then joining a guard unit later down the road is a risky proposition with multiple hurdles and pitfalls. Unfortunately for you the clock is ticking.

 

Just my .02

 

Retired Guard Guy

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I would proceed with caution....

 

I looked on-line and I could not find the answer, but you need to ensure that WO's are not covered by the Reserve Officer Personnel Management Act of 1996 or ROPMA. ROPMA states that an officer "shall be separated not later than the 9th month after the results of the board are made public for officers that are twice passed over for promotion." The only exception to this is if an officer is within "sanctuary" meaning they have more than 18 yrs of service.

 

For what it is worth, in WOCS one of our TACs addressed this issue. He was pretty adamant that you will be separated six months after you are passed over. In fact, he wouldn't stop talking about it at small group meetings, because apparently he was facing that while we were in class.

 

Hey, look at me contributing to the conversation with all of my vast knowledge... heh.

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Two time non select: 1st of day of the 7th calendar month after the promotion board report is approved, ref is Officer Discharges, (AR 600-8-24), para 5-9c.

 

ADSO for 64s (and others): 3 years ref is ADSOs (AR 350-100), para 2-7f.

 

Ya'll killing me with regs... start to get familiar with Army Publishing Directorate (APD), AR 95-1, all the FMs and TCs, and for your sake, DA Pam 600-3 so you can see what the Army expects of we lowly warrant and commissioned guys as far as jobs, professional military/civilian education, and promotion timelines. You don't have to rote memorize it, but you need to be able to quickly reference it. Knowledge is power.

 

SBuzz: Some good gouge up above and you have some choices to make, I won't belabor it, but two things that served me well: 1) only continue to do the job if it is fun (or "fun'ish...not everyday will be awesome), 2) Go out on your terms (your life is regulated by the big green weeny enough, take charge when able).

 

If you are thinking about getting out, there are some things you are needing to do professionally (yeah, yeah), but you do if you are wanting to fly commercially. Connections / networking (say what?), you can knock out your ATP-Helo relatively easily (and for less than $5gs total), etc need to start not when you do SFL-TAP, but WELL before (if we had only known...). Have your milcomp knocked out (if you are at Irwin and if not completed previously), very easy to complete up here in Vegas with a little bit of studying some SheppardAir test prep. Just go into this with your eyes wide open. And helo tours in Vegas, some love it, some don't--but research it accordingly as none of the big 3 up here are just going to let your Army awesomeness walk right in; IF they have an opening, you will be competing unless you have an "in".

 

I will say retirement pay (PLUS disability) is nice, but if you aren't enjoying the active duty life, the juice probably isn't worth the squeeze if you have/or want other opportunities.

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Overall my goal is to separate from military service and it has been since the first Kiowa board. I want to fly scout helicopters, I love the mission, I loved the airframe, and I thoroughly enjoyed what the community used to be. But that's gone now, and I am not interested in joining the attack community. I've had a plan in place for a couple years and I've been doing a good job of following it. I believe I have all my ducks in a row in order to leave the Army and pursue a job down the road somewhere.

 

Having slept a couple nights on it and gathered as much information as I can, I will be turning down the transition. From what I'm hearing from my friends I am not alone. They seem to be really struggling to fill seats.

 

The Guard thing is potentially something I would like to do later on down the road, but that potential isn't enough to keep me on active duty. I've completed my ADSO for flight school, I am not a turd, it's just time to move on. Thanks for the input you've all been very helpful!

Edited by SBuzzkill
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If you haven't already, make sure to join the Army Pilot To Airline Pilot / APTAP forum (worthwhile even for those us that don't dream of being a hand holder/zoomie). The "Helicopter Employment Links" sticky under Job Postings is very worthwhile...only so much or so little makes it to JSFirm, etc. GL.

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Best of luck to you SBuzzkill.

 

My son has visited the Pacific Aviation Museum Pearl and saw the Kiowa on display, the one he flew for most of his time in Hawaii. He, like you loved the airframe and the mission, as he put it, it was bittersweet. Like you, he turned down the transition to the Apache, he's now a Cpt. in AD Civil Affairs.

 

Enjoy the family time, it goes by fast.

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  • 3 weeks later...

We had a 60L two time passover move direct to GA guard. He walked to their office, talked to the commander, and a couple interviews later, he had a transfer packet in. Now he's dual tracked, full time and loving it.

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